The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education

The first item on our agenda is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education, and the first question is from Joyce Watson.

The School Admissions Code

Joyce Watson AC: 1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the school admissions code as regards summer-born pupils? OAQ52970

Kirsty Williams AC: Parents can request that their summer-born child starts school aged five in a reception class. The code is clear that admission authorities should consider requests carefully and make decisions on a case-by-case basis, in consultation with parents and the school, and specifically in relation to the best interests of the child.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you for the answer, and I'm sure you're aware that the first day of school is an anxious time for parents and their children, and they often look at them and think that they're not ready; they're too little. But the parents of summer-born children in some cases might have genuine cause for concern, and they're now calling for more flexibility on those start dates. Cabinet Secretary, in response to a recent news report, the Welsh Government has said that a school admission code review would start this month. Are you able to update the Assembly on that? Is it under way and who is leading it, and what might the scope be of that review?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Joyce. I would agree that the start of a child's schooling can be an anxious time as well as an exciting time, andsometimes even more so for parents than it is for the individual child. I remember being left devastatedat the school gates as my daughter tripped into school without a look backward, leaving me feeling very inadequate. Of course, our youngest children are entitled to schooling from our foundation phase, which offers a unique education experience for children aged three to seven. It's an innovative framework designed to meet the diverse needs of each individual child regardless of their stage of development. It is intended that this framework for our youngest learners is appropriate to their stage of learning rather than focusing solely on age-related activities. You are right to say that I have given a commitment for the code to be reviewed. That review has begun. In the first instance, my officials are discussing with each of the admissions authorities—i.e. each of our local education authorities—how they have been using the code over the last five years, and I have asked my officials to contact members of the summer-born campaign group to ascertain their views.
If it is the intention to amend the code, there would be a requirement for a statutory consultation period. So, if I decide to amend the code after this review, then that would be open to further consultation.

David Melding AC: Cabinet Secretary, I was born on 28 August. I think I first raised this issue over 10 years ago, and I think we need to be even more radical, because I was young for my physical age as well as being born on 28 August. I think I was often 18 months behind many of the people that were in the same class year as me. It caused reading and writing difficulties when I was in primary school, and it wasn't until the very end of secondary school that I started to achieve close to my intellectual potential. This is a real issue, and we need to have children in the appropriate year group, which may not be exactly what's determined by the strict criteria of their age.

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, David, as I said, the current code does allow for school admission authorities to be flexible in responding to requests from parents. As we carry out this review, we will be analysinghow many requests have been made, how those requests have been dealt with, and, as I said, we are keen to hear the view from parents who have concerns in this area. And should I deem it necessary, then we can take the opportunity, following consultation, to amend the code. But, at this moment, we're still in the process of gathering evidence.

I was born on 1 September. [Laughter.] [Interruption.] No, we won't go on.

Question 2, Rhunap Iorwerth.

Medical Education in Bangor University

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on medical education in Bangor University? OAQ52969

Kirsty Williams AC: Presiding Officer, it clearly hasn't done you or David Melding any harm as to when you were born.
Thank you, Rhun. The Cabinet Secretary for health provided a detailed update on medical education in Wales in his letter to Assembly Members sent on 13 November. This confirmed that the first full programme of medical education to be offered in north Wales will commence in 2019.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much. I celebrated as though it were my birthday—27 August, by the way—when we heard the news just a few weeks ago that medical education was going to be provided in Bangor from this next academic year onwards. Siân Gwenllian, I and the Plaid Cymru team more broadly have fought hard for this, and we were very pleased that we had reached agreement with the Government to secure the funding to push this forward. I'm extremely grateful to everyone who’s been involved in making this happen, none less than those in the teams at Bangor University and Cardiff University, given that this exciting development will be a partnership between both those universities.
My question today is what work is the Welsh Government and your department considering doing in order to notify young people locally that this is happening, so that they can start to make educational decisions that may be different in preparing the ground to study this course. Furthermore, what work can be done to promote this option for students and graduates in Wales?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Rhun. I, like you, am delighted that theseopportunities are being made available for students in north Wales.Obviously, routes into medical school start from the very choices that children make when they take their GCSEs. That's why, this term, we're seeing the roll-out of our reformed Seren programme, which looks to support children earlier in their educational career, providing them with exactly the kind of advice around GCSE options, career aspirations and opportunitiesat an earlier stage.
Obviously, universities are autonomous bodies and we can't dictate who they admit to their programmes, but I am delighted to say that, following changes to the application and admissions programme both at Cardiff and at Swansea, which are working in partnership with north Wales and west Wales to expand medical education, we have seen an increase in the number of Welsh-domiciled students gaining a place to study medicine at their institutions. So, that is now 30 per cent of students in Cardiff and 50 per cent of students on theSwansea postgraduate programme who are Welsh-domiciled students. In fact, we see a record number of Welsh young people being accepted to medical schools across the United Kingdom. Applications from Welsh-domiciled students to study medicine have again risen by a further 14 per cent for this year's application cycle. So, there is obviously a very keen interest amongst our Welshschool and college studentsto pursuecourses in medicine, and that's why the extension of the number of places at Bangor and in west Wales, in conjunction with Swansea, means that our students, I believe, are well placed to take advantage of that expansion.

Mark Isherwood AC: It's 18 months since I asked the First Minister here to ensure that the business case for a new medical school in Bangor included dialogue with Liverpool medical school, after the north Waleslocal medicalcommittee had expressed concern that the previous supply from there, where many of their generation of GPs had come from, had largely been severed.
In addition, therefore, to the medical education to be provided in Bangor through the collaborative approach with Cardiff and Swansea, which I welcome, how do you respond tothe continuing calls by the north Waleslocal medicalcommittee to incorporate connections with Liverpool and Manchester medical schools and also, therefore, restore the supply of new young doctors into north Walesfrom there, when many trainee doctorsmay still choose to study there alongside their studies within Wales?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, of course, Mark, as I have said, we have seen a record number of Welsh studentsgaining a place at medical school, whether that be medicalschools here in Wales or, indeed, in the rest of the UK, which shows the strength and the ability of our A-level students to secure those places. I have not been personally involved in those discussions with providers across the border. My priority is to support the intense work that is going on between Cardiff and Bangor universities, which is at an advanced stage and shows two institutions working really closely together. And let's be absolutely clear, this new expansion will provide pathways for doctors being trained completely in north Wales, enabling medical students to study in north Wales for the entirety of their degree and to plan for their postgraduate training, and I think that's very much to be welcomed.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson,Mohammad Asghar.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you, madam Presiding Officer. Minister, the German vocational education and training system, also known as the dual training system, is highly recognised worldwide due to its combination of teaching and training embedded in the real work environment. The main characteristic of the dual system is co-operation between companies and colleges, regulated by law. Businesses that take part in the dual training scheme consider it to be the best form of personal recruitment by saving on recruitment costs required for the skills andlabour needed. What study has the Welsh Government made of the German system to see if there are lessons to be learned that could benefit us in Wales?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. I met recently with the German industry to discuss this very issue. They came in and put forward theirmodel of what is a successful model in Germany. I know that my predecessor in this role actuallywent to Germany and looked at the model and tried to understand if there was anything that we could pick up from the system. I think the nature of the education systems are very, very different, and they don't have the same number of local authorities. So, it's very difficult to pick up one model and plant it on here, but I do think that what we have recognised is learning on the job and really understanding that practical application of education is something that is beneficial. I've just been to an engineering presentation upstairs where they were saying precisely that—experiential learning actually really engrains the learning in the student. That's why we have really put the emphasis on the apprenticeship model. That's why I think we're very proud of what we've been able to deliver on this and why we are very keen to make sure that we deliver on the 100,000 apprenticeships that we promised during this Assembly term.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you very much indeed, Minister. I'm glad that we're thinking on the same level. In Wales, the Welsh Government pays the employer to take on apprenticeships. In Germany, the Government does not pay the employers but pays for equipment and operation of vocational colleges, which represent some 16 per cent of the total cost of dual training. The companies who provide training contribute the largest share of the financing of dual training—some 80 per cent of the cost. As a result, German apprenticeship is genuinely employer-led and those employer organisations undertake the vast bulk of on-the-job training. What is the Welsh Governmentdoing to ensure apprenticeships in Wales more closely meet the need of Welsh employers?

Eluned Morgan AC: This, again, is something else that I discussed with the German representative. We talked about how they managed to convince German companies that it was in their interest to invest in their own employees. I think we've had, over the years, quite a lot of European funding, and many employers in Wales have come to depend on European funding to upskill their workers. I think we need to probably start to get them to understand that they also have to put their hand in their own pocket to upskill their own workers and that it's in their interest to upskilltheir workers, as their productivity will increase and their profitability will increase as a result. That is very different from the culture that exists in Germany, where there's an understanding that they make a contribution. So, we're working towards that change.
On the relationship and making sure that the courses that we provide are relevant, you will knowthat we're really trying to push this issue in relation to regional skills partnerships. We've put that additional funding on the table, which further education colleges can't touch unless they're responding to the skills needs of local employers.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you, Minister. Another criticism that has been levelled against apprenticeship schemes in Wales is that they mainly benefit larger companies and not SMEs. In Germany, there is a permanent system of training, beneficial to both large companies and SMEs. What is the Welsh Government doing to ensure apprenticeships in Wales take account of the needs of SMEsas well as larger companies?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, the answer to that is 'a lot more than they're doing in England'. The interesting thing is that the apprenticeship levy is being paid by large companies, and they're given, effectively,tokens to spendand it's only the large companies that have access to the apprenticeship system. There's been such a mess that the actual system is collapsing in England.
We've not gone down that route because we think that it's essential that we do support small and medium-sized enterprises as well. What we're looking for are quality apprenticeships, not just vast numbers, which they're doing in England. So, I think that we can be very proud of the work that we are doing with SMEs. Tomorrow, I'll be meeting with the aerospace industry, where they've come together to provide SMEs across a number of areas—different companies understanding that they can feed off each other. So, we're trying to do a lot more of these shared apprenticeships, so that the burden doesn't fall specifically on any particular small company.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you,Llywydd. In light of the agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Labour Party negotiated two years ago, it was agreed that £2 million would be used specifically for promoting the Welsh language. You will be aware that what was at the heart of that agreement between Plaid and yourselves was a commitment to establish a language agency that would be at arm's length in order to do the promotion and language planning work necessary. Can you enlighten us on what happened to that pledge to establish an agency and why it wasn't delivered?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, what we had hoped, of course, is that the commissioner would be doing more of the promotional work. As that has perhaps been difficult for the commissioner to undertake, part of that work has come in-house and is being undertaken by officials within Welsh Government. Of course, ideally, we would like to have people at arm's length, people with the skills outwith the Government doing this kind of work. And, of course, ideally, what I would like to see, as we've stated in the White Paper, is that the new commission would be given this responsibility and that that commission would be an arm's-length organisation.

Siân Gwenllian AC: So, you’re still talking about the creation of a commission, which is included in the proposals on the Welsh language Bill, but in the culture committee last week, you said that everything is up in the air in light of Brexit, and you gave no pledge that there would be a Bill before the end of this Assembly term or a commission either.
In your manifesto for your hopes of becoming First Minister of Wales, I understand that there is no mention of one of the Government’s main policies and, indeed, the main policy that you've been responsible for promoting, namely the target of creating 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050, or any talk about the Welsh language Bill either. Can we take from that that that you don't feel passionate about the Welsh language Bill proposals and that they won't be continued were you to become First Minister?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I don't think it's appropriate for me to respond to the contents of my personal manifesto as a spokesperson on behalf of Welsh Government in this place. What I can tell you is that, as regards the Welsh language Bill, of course we hope that that Bill will come before us. At present, you are just as aware as I am of the mess that is taking place from the point of view of Brexit, and that’s the only reason why we're in a position to be clear that it isn't possible to make this commitment that we would like to make because of the chaos ensuing from Brexitat the moment.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Well, I think it is very pertinent that I ask that question, but I didn't get a response, of course.
You did acknowledge at the culture committee that the promotional arrangements were deficient—to return to promotion—and that the Welsh language division, in its current form, doesn't have the capacity to be doing that meaningful and strategic promotional work. We truly need action on language planning in order to create those 1 million Welsh speakers and I received some advice from the Assembly’s Legal Services that shows that an arm's-length agency to promote the Welsh language could be established without new legislation, and it refers to the work done by the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol and the establishment of that organisation with broad-ranging responsibilities through a memorandum and articles.
Another area that your lack of direction with the Bill and the strategy is affecting is people’s ability to access Welsh language services when dealing with bodies that are crucial to the everyday lives of citizens. Unlike what you suggested at committee, in implementing the current Measure you could impose standards on the utilities, on transport companies, on housing associations and telecommunications companies. So, if there is no timetable for the establishment of a commission, nor a timetable for introducing a Welsh language Bill, may I ask you for a timetable in terms of this? When will it be possible for the people of Wales to be able to access these crucial services, which aren't reliant on new legislation?

Eluned Morgan AC: I think that a huge amount of work has already been done internally, within the Government, as regards promoting the Welsh language and I would like to see the commissioner doing more of that work, and we’re in discussions to see whether, as a result of the fact that we won’t be seeing the imposition of more standards at present, there’s a possibility of seeing the current commissioner doing more of that work. That is the vision and that is what we are hoping for. But I do believe that a great deal of work has already been done over the past two years as regards promotion.
As regards imposing standards, we have said that we will have a break from that as we develop the Bill, and we of course hope that this Bill will be introduced and passed during this period, before the next election. So, I don’t believe that anything has changed apart from the fact that Brexit is likely to cause all sorts of chaos to all our current arrangements.

UKIP spokesperson, David Rowlands.

David J Rowlands AC: Diolch, Llywydd.Some 18 to 20 years ago, former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair famously made a pledge to have 50 per cent of young adults progressing to a higher education by 2010. This target seems to have been enthusiastically embraced by the Welsh Government, because latest figures show that we are close to achieving that target in Wales. However, Cabinet Minister, the problem lies in that almost half of our new graduates are working in non-graduate jobs. Does the Cabinet Secretary not agree that this shows a significant mismatch in the education that students receive and the skills needed for industry?

Kirsty Williams AC: No, I do not believe that to be the case. I want to ensure that Welsh-domiciled students that have the academic ability and the desire to study at a higher education level have the opportunity to do so, and are supported by the most generous system of student support in the United Kingdom.

David J Rowlands AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer. We in UKIP believe that many students would be better off following another route to their desired career path; in other words, education should be more closely linked to employability rather than pure educational qualifications. Given such statistics as those quoted in the Wales section of the employer skills survey of 2017, which shows a sizable increase in the proportion of skills shortage vacancies in the construction sector, for instance—some 40 per cent of the vacancies in the Welsh construction industry are down to skills shortages—is it not time, Cabinet Secretary, that a much greater emphasis should now be placed on getting our children into vocational education?

Kirsty Williams AC: Perish the thought, Presiding Officer, that we should value education for education's sake. Can I just say that the Welsh Government has committed to a comprehensive reform of post-compulsory education and training, which looks to break down the barriers between higher education, further education, work-based learning and apprenticeships to allow students to be able to have more flexible learning opportunities? I recently met a little boy who said his aspiration was either to do an apprenticeship or to go to university. I hope by the time he's 18 that he won't have to choose; he will be able to do a higher degree apprenticeship by both training on the job and being in university.

David J Rowlands AC: Again, I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her answer. Regional labour market reports published by the Welsh Government also have an interesting story to tell with regard to skills shortages. My region of south-east Wales has its highest skills shortage vacancies in the sectors of manufacturing, construction, transport and communications. The mid Wales region, where of course your constituency lies, has a somewhat different picture—business services, transport and communications having the highest skills shortage vacancies in that part of Wales. This would suggest that the vocational training given to our students should have a regional approach; even in rural areas they should not concentrate exclusively on agriculture. Cabinet Secretary, is the educational sector aware of this diversity and is it adequatelyaddressing these needs, particularly with regard to the vocational sector?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, of course, Presiding Officer, the Member is right to say that different areas of Wales will require different skill sets to respond appropriately to the economy in that area. I would refer the Member to the statement given by my colleague yesterday, the Minister for skills and lifelong learning, which spoke of the reform to the way in which we are funding, for instance, further education to better align college provision with the requests of the regional skills partnerships and local businesses, so there is a greater synergy between what college courses are on offer in a local area to meet the skills needs of the employers of that area.

Skills Training in Wales

Dawn Bowden AC: 3. Can the Minister please update the National Assembly on EU funding for skills training in Wales? OAQ52961

Eluned Morgan AC: Within the skills portfolio, we are leading on nine European social fundprojects, with £340 million approved to December 2023. Around 105,000 participants have been supported to date, and we expect to support a further 125,000 to underpin a number of 'Prosperity for All' commitments and to deliver those key ministerial priorities.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. It's clear to me that the European Union has been a great benefit in funding skills and training opportunities. Certainly in my constituency ofMerthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, the funds provided by the European social fund have a clear focus on the essential task of getting many vulnerable people back into the labourmarket. So, can you provide my constituents with any assurance that the strong record of investment in skills training will continue if we leave the European Union?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, of course it's difficult to provide assurances on anything at the moment, but we can hopefully rely on the assurance given by the Treasury that, whatever happens, even if there is a 'no deal', that we will have a guarantee that that funding will continue until 2020. If there's a transition deal, then officials are seeking to ensure that any money remaining within that ESF pot as a result of the fact that there have been massive fluctuations in the exchange rate, means that we hopefully will be able to carry on spending that money until 2023. But I think it's worth really underlining the massive, massive amount of support that communities like yours have received as a result of European funding. It's a shame that, perhaps, not more of those people who've benefited from those courses have really understood where that money came from.

Bethan Sayed AC: We’ve heard from the Graeme Reid report that there is, perhaps, an over-reliance on European funding sources. Clearly that’s been natural because that funding’s been available, but there are sources for innovation that are available from elsewhere within the UK that universities and FE colleges could bid for so that they could do more as institutions and then do that on a commercial level further down the line. So, how would you respond to that suggestion by Graeme Reid, and are you as a Government doing enough to encourage universities and FE institutions to make applications in these areas?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, I think that my colleague is leading on this, but what I can say is that I think there are other sources that we could bid for to ensure that we get more of that funding into Wales. But I also think that it’s important for us to emphasise that it isn't only the Government’s responsibility to fund research and development. The private sector also must put their hands in their pockets. If look across the world, we spend about 1.5 per cent of our whole GDP on R&D; in the USA, they spend about 3 per cent. So, we have got some way to go in improving the level of funding—. The biggest differenceis because the private sector in this country perhaps doesn't put as much of its money into the system.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Minister, the UK Government has confirmed that there'll be no gap in funding for regional growth in the event of a 'no deal'Brexit. This guarantee includes European social funding projects. Will the Minister confirm, therefore, that, should the Welsh Government fail to deliver on its promise of 100,000 apprenticeships in this term, it will be the Welsh Government's responsibility and failure?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, Mohammad, I'm delighted to say that we're ahead of target in terms of the apprenticeship delivery, and I'm fairly confident that I can say that we are going to bust that target of 100,000 apprenticeships. There's more money that we think will be coming in that area. This is something we're absolutely committed to asa Welsh Government. We're very proud of our record on this. So, I'm fairly confident that I can say that we will hit that target and that, actually, we will go beyond it.

Agency Staff in the Teaching Profession

Caroline Jones AC: 4. What action is the Welsh Government taking to reduce the cost of agency staff in the teaching profession? OAQ52959

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you for the question. The National Procurement Service has recently published a new tender specification for commissioning education agency workers, which clarifies the position on agency fees. Local authorities and schools are best placed to manage the deployment of supply teachers and monitor agency spend under the revised arrangements appropriately.

Caroline Jones AC: Cabinet Secretary, we are spending around £40 million a year on supply teachers, with most of that going to agencies, which overcharge schools and underpay staff. We cannot manage without supply teachers, but asUndeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru have highlighted, supply teachers tend to be treated exceptionally poorly in terms of pay, working conditions and with ageneral lack of respect. Cabinet Secretary, will you commit today to fund and expand the supply teaching project, which sees clusters of schools share newly qualified teachers to provide cover for absent staff, reducing our over-reliance on teaching agencies?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Caroline, for your support for the supply teacher cluster pilots, which I've introduced. The investment of £2.7 million in that project is ensuring that 15 local authority areas are involved, and we have 50 teachers working across 100 schools as part of that. The evaluation of that pilot project has just begun. We need to learn the lessons of what parts of it have worked well, what parts, if any, have not worked well and the opportunities that the pilot gives us to look to expand that programme further.
Let me be absolutely clear that we have worked very closely with the National Procurement Service to ensure that the new agency worker framework specification, which was published on12 November, addresses fair employment practices and minimum pay rates for supply teachers and offers greater transparency in terms of the fees that can be charged by agencies. It's important to note that we are not the employers of teachers, and I expect all public bodies who arethe employers to abide by the principles of fair work and the code of practice in ethical employment and supply chains in where they source their work from. I should also like to add that to complement and support the changes to the NPS framework, I'm currently considering implementing mandatory quality assurance standards for supply agencies.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you very much for that answer to Caroline. Of course, you'll be aware that, three years ago, the Children, Young People and Education Committee did an inquiry into the whole of supply teaching, and one of the costs that isn't always recognised is the impact that a supply teacher has on pupil outcomes, especially in disadvantaged areas and thelinks to poor pupil behaviour. Now, of the 20 or so recommendations that we made, most of which were either accepted or accepted in principle, one of them was a commitment to undertake research into the effects of supply teaching on these particular areas, i.e. pupil outcomes in disadvantaged areas and pupil behaviour. Have you been able to undertake that research or is that part of the clusters that you've been talking to Caroline about?

Kirsty Williams AC: It has been factored in to the evidence base that we have based the pilot project on. We do know the importance of supply teaching in raising standards in Welsh schools and the ability to maintain a level of consistency with one supply teacher working across a group of schools so that teacher gets to know those schools and those pupils better. Conversely, the pupils beginning to develop a relationship with one particular person is one of the benefits, I believe, of the pilot that we're currently investigating. Clearly, these aspects will form part of the evaluation of the pilot and hopefully will give us the information as to whether this pilot should be extended to cover the entirety of Wales and whether it should go beyond, as it currently does now, using newly qualified teachers as the supply teachers in that particular pilot, and whether that should apply to the entirety of the supply teaching workforce.

Vikki Howells AC: Cabinet Secretary, I share the concerns that have been raised by my colleagues Angela Burns and Caroline Jones, and I continue to deal with casework from disgruntled supply teachers in my own constituency. Indeed, just last week, I met with a supply teacher who told me of an alarming case where a supply agency offers alleged inducements, such as tickets to rugby internationals, to headteachers in order to promote their business. Do you consider this to be appropriate, and if not, what interventions can the Welsh Government take?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Vikki. I'd be very pleased to receive evidence from your constituent, on an anonymousbasis if that would make the individual feel more comfortable, so this can be explored. As I said in my earlier answer to Caroline, as well as working with the NPSto produce what I believe is a stronger procurement framework than we currently have at the moment, I'm currently considering the introduction, as I said, of a system that would allow for mandatory quality assurance standards from supply agencies. Should we proceed down this route, any commercial agency wishing to supply temporary teachers to a maintained school in Wales would need to meet certain requirements. Those accredited standards would support, I believe, schools, supply teachers and also—the important point—the quality of teaching and learning, and could potentially look at ensuring that such practices as those that you have just outlined are not acceptable.

Welsh-medium School Places

Neil McEvoy AC: 5. What discussions has the Welsh Government held with Cardiff Council in relation to increasing the number of Welsh-medium school places? OAQ52971

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Neil. I'm very pleased that you asked that in Welsh, and thank you for your efforts in that regard.
I do think that there is a connection that's made very often between Cardiff Council and the Welsh Government, and there is continuous monitoring of what the council have promised to do in their Welsh in education strategic plan, and, in that, we hope that they will ensure that they deliver on those promises. So, in-house, within the Government, we have people who are regularly monitoring that.

Neil McEvoy AC: Thank you. Ysgol Hamadryad is moving to a new site in Butetown in January. There is an opportunity to do something very special and very positive here with local communities. What will the strategy be, and what will you do to engage with this? Would it be possible to arrange a meeting with stakeholders in the community?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. Well, I'm extremely pleased to see this new school being opened. I was one of the people who campaigned for a school in this area of the city, and I was at the ceremony where they cut the first sod for the new building. I'm also very happy that there is a nursery unit that will be attached to the school and I do now hope that there will be an endeavour—and I know that this is already happening—by the school to engage with the community in a broader fashion, and that they go out and ensure that everybody in the area feels that they can access that school too. I give you a commitment to contact the council to ensure that they ask the school to redouble their efforts just before they move in, so that the people of the area feel that this school is theirs.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Minister, obviously, it's welcome news that new schools are opening up to provide Welsh-medium education, not just in Cardiff, but across the wholeof Wales. But one thing that is really important is the ability to supply those schools with quality teachers able to teach the curriculum. With the devolution of teachers' pay and conditions, what analysishas the Government taken about many measures it might be able to take to fill shortages in this particular area? Because, as I said, there's little or no point in having new schools if we haven't got the teachers to teach the lessons.

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, in relation to Welsh language teachers, where I'm slightly more familiar with where the issues are, I think in relation to primary schoolteachers, we're probably on course and we have enough teachers. We do have an issue, as do people across the whole of the planet, in recruiting teachers to secondary education. We are putting very practical measures in place to ensure that we can attract new people to the profession and to make sure that we are having quality standards. You'll be aware that the education Secretary last week really set out some very clear proposals in terms of how we will improve the quality of the teaching within Wales.

Children and Young People who have a Sensory Impairment

Lynne Neagle AC: 6. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide a statement on the provision of education to children and young people in Gwent who have a sensory impairment? OAQ52950

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Lynne. Through our national mission, we are reforming our education system to enable every learner, regardless of background or personal circumstances, to reach their potential. Local authorities have a duty to meet the needs of all children with special needs, including those with sensory impairments.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I know that you are well aware of my deep concern about the decision by Newport council to withdraw from the Gwent-wide specialist education service for children with sensory impairment, known in Gwent as SenCom. Disappointingly, this decision was taken with no consultation, either with families or with partner local authorities, and I'm deeply concerned that the withdrawal will destabiliseservices for a very disadvantaged group of children and young people who are currently receiving a high-quality specialist service. What steps can the Welsh Government take to ensure that children and young people in Gwent are not disadvantaged by this decision?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Lynne, for the question todayand the correspondence that you have been engaged in with me and officials regarding the SenComservice, which was a very, very good example of how regional working and local authorities were pooling resources to create a very specialised service to meet the needs of a specific group of children, which is perhaps difficult to do when working alone. Effective partnership working is a key factor in ensuring that resources are used effectively to support learners with additional learning needs, especially at a time when resources are not infinite. I have written to Newport City Council leader, Councillor Debbie Wilcox, to establish what arrangements are being put in place to ensure that learners, families and schools, not just in Newportbut across the region,will not be adversely affected by this decision.

Mark Reckless AC: Should every school have the ability to serve children with sensory impairment to the same degree, or does the Cabinet Secretary believe it is better for schools to specialise and have particular schools with well-developed expertise in this area?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, Mark, I don't believe that there is a one size fits all; it very much depends on the needs of individual children, and, indeed, the views of the parents of those individual children about whether they want their child to be educated within their community, and the cohort within the community, or whether that child is better served by very specialist placements. What is really important as we moved through our ALN transformation programme is that schools of whatever variety are equipped to deal effectively with additional learning needs in its variety of forms and are there to respond appropriately to ensure that each child reaches their full potential. What is challenging in the SenCom case is that this is a specific group of children with very specific needs, and by working together, SenCom have been able to provide a multidisciplinary team that has been able to provide that very specialist support. But what is absolutely fundamental to our ALNtransformation programme is that the child sits at the centre.

Rural Schools

Jane Hutt AC: 7. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the importance of rural schools? OAQ52941

Kirsty Williams AC: Jane, rural schools play an important role in our national mission to raise standards and extend opportunities to all our young people, which is why we've taken action, including publishing a rural education action plan and introducing a small and rural schools grant, to help address the challenges that they face.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I'd like to thank you for your reply to my letter regarding the proposed closure of Llancarfan school, in which you say that a presumption against closure does not mean that a school will never close; however, it does mean that the case for closure must be strong and not taken until all viable alternatives have been consciously considered, including federation. As you're aware, there's widespread opposition to the closure of this rural school in my constituency. Can you comment on the evidence that the local authority has not considered viable alternatives, such as federation?

Kirsty Williams AC: Well, Jane, I am aware that the cabinet of the Vale of Glamorgan Council decided to proceed with the proposal to transfer LlancarfanPrimary School to a new site. The statutory notice, as you will be aware, was published on 5 November and provides a 28-day objection period in which anyone can respond. In this case, objections have to be done by 3 December. The local authority must then publish a summary of the statutory objections and the response to those objections.As you'll be aware, a proposal approved or rejected by a local authority can be referred to the Welsh Minister for consideration if certain limited parties decide to take that step, and therefore I can't really comment any further on that individual case.

The Teaching of Modern Foreign Languages

Neil Hamilton AC: 8. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the teaching of modern foreign languages in Wales? OAQ52956

Kirsty Williams AC: The performance of young people who study modern foreign languages at AS, A-level and GCSE remains strong. We have invested £2.5 million in our 'Global futures' plan to enable young people to understand the importance and the opportunities of studying modern foreign languages.

Neil Hamilton AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response, but it doesn't actually reflect the reality of modern foreign language teaching in Welsh schools today. The latest Universities and Colleges Admissions Service figures indicate that there are 80 students from Wales who secured places on European language and literature courses last year—down from 120 at this time last year. And, over the decade from 2009, A-level entries in French and German have fallen by two thirds—and they fell again last year—and Spanish by a half. The Government's 'Globalfutures' document was published in October 2015, and it was a plan to promote and improve modern foreign languages in Wales during the five-year period up to 2020. This programme seems to have utterly failed, so what is the Cabinet Secretary going to do to try to repair the damage that has been done?

Kirsty Williams AC: Let us be absolutely clear: just a few moments ago, UKIP was telling us that we had far too many people going on to university to study academic subjects, and actually our focus as a Government should be on encouraging—[Interruption.]—be on people, encouraging them to do other routes. Let's be absolutely clear: where pupils are choosing to study modern foreign languages, they are doing extremely well—2018 results showed an increase at A-level grades A* to C in French, German and Spanish, and, at GCSE, A* to Cgrades increased in French—[Interruption.] In French also. Now, undoubtedly, there are challenges in relation to the take-up of modern foreign languages, but the figures from 2018 show that the decline in the take-up of German has halted, and the decline in French is less steep. We have put additional resources in via the 'Globalfutures' programme, and, to support this further, I have agreed additional funding for the regions for 2018-19 to enhance their support offer for MFL, with specific focus on the primary sector, so thatchildren discover a love of learning modern foreign languages earlier in their academic career rather than having to wait until secondary school to have these opportunities.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services

The next item, therefore, is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services, and the first question is from Joyce Watson.

Testing for HIV

Joyce Watson AC: 1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on increasing the opportunities for people to test for HIV, including within community settings, through self-testing and home-sampling? OAQ52963

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the question. I recently announced a number of interventions to improve sexual health in Wales, including a pilot for online testing in the Hywel Ddauniversity health board area, and a project to provide self-sampling HIV tests to those attending pre-exposure prophylaxis clinics. This work will inform future developments in service provision across Wales.

Jane Hutt AC: I'm really pleased, Cabinet Secretary, and I welcome your commitment to this, because we all know that early diagnosis of HIV is crucial to ensuring that any individual who has a positive test can start treatment as soon as possible, and having a range of opportunities for testing is indeed vital to improving that early diagnosis and to maintaining the health and well-being of those people who are living, or might be living, with HIV. Late diagnosis of HIVdoes cause serious implications for the individual's health and can lead to serious and life-threatening complications. Unfortunately, late diagnosis for HIV is still high, with 43 per cent of all new cases being diagnosed late. So, Cabinet Secretary, beyond the ones that you have just outlined—and they are indeed very welcome—what other actions might the Welsh Government take to improve even further the take-up of early diagnostic testing in HIV?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I'm genuinely encouraged both by the work we're doing on PrEP, but also in the new pilot that I've announced. The work on PrEPis important, because, if you recall, when I gave a statement to this Chamber previously, we had picked up a number of people in the pre-testing, before providing PrEP—a number of people undiagnosed with HIV—so they were able to actually begin treatment for that at that point, as well as the preventative point about PrEP, and I expect that we will learn much more about how to make sure PrEP is properly available to prevent HIV taking place in the first place. The roll-out that I've announced of the self-testing and sampling at home is important, because other parts of the UK have a variation of that. We've actually got an easier test that we're actually rolling out here in Wales. The initial focus is on chlamydia and gonorrhoea, but that will then roll out into looking at HIV testing as well. We provide nearly 100,000 HIV tests in Wales each year, so there's a significant amount of testing going on. It's not about what we should do; it's how we should do it, and how we should improve what we're doing, and, actually, on this point, we're leading the way across the UK.

Nick Ramsay AC: Cabinet Secretary, you recently highlighted the importance of understanding the real levels of HIV in Wales, and I think, as you added, the number of people living with HIV here is probably underestimated. The Terrence Higgins Trust have produced statistics that relate to the UK as a whole, with a breakdown, but there's very little data in their statistics relating to Wales specifically. Aside from looking at providing testing in communities and self-testing kits, will you be carrying out further Wales-focused research to understandhow many people in Wales are HIV positive and, importantly, if there any parts of Wales with a higher number of people suffering than elsewhere?

Vaughan Gething AC: We expect to learn an awful lot from the PrEPstudy we're engaged in—not just people presenting themselves, because it is a genuinely nationwide point, but the broader engagement with sexual health services. So, the point about making testing easier—it's all part of trying to reduce stigma as well. There's a challenge about people coming forward to take advantage of the testing that is already available, sothe easier we make that, the more we talk about it, frankly, the more likely we are to have people come forward. And we can of course be confident that there are people living in Wales undiagnosed with HIV, because we discovered some of them by accident in the PrEPtesting. We thought we would discover some, because we're actually getting to people who have riskier sexual health behaviours than others. That's why, even the people who have undertaken PrEP, we know that nearly a fifth of those people have actually got other sexually transmitted infections. So, we're actually dealing with the right population of people, and I look forward to addressing the Terrence Higgins World AIDS Day event here in the Senedd at the end of this month, while speaking about this Government's commitment to eliminating HIV here in Wales.

Immunisation Rates in North Wales

Darren Millar AC: 2. Will the Welsh Government make a statement on immunisation rates in north Wales? OAQ52943

Vaughan Gething AC: I'm happy to do so. Immunisation uptake rates in Wales remain at the top of international benchmarks and are comparable to other UK countries. The vast majority of children in Wales are fully immunised before they start school. Uptake of childhood immunisations in north Wales is above the Wales average for most programmes.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that response. You'll be aware that older people and other vulnerable groups are also encouraged to undertake the offer of a flu vaccine each winter. There's been considerable concern in north Wales about a shortage of the vaccine across the region, including in my own constituency of Clwyd West. Do you accept that that shortage could potentially put the lives of vulnerable people at risk? And what are you doing to drive up the vaccination rates amongst front-line NHS workers, where there are—a significant proportion of whom do not have these jabs every year and could be putting patients at risk?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the follow-up question. There were essentially two parts to the follow-up question. Actually, over the last year we've made real progress on NHS workers, in particular front-line workers, in actually undertaking the vaccine. Four years or so ago, when I was given the opportunity to work in the health department, the level of vaccine uptake within our NHS workers was considerably less than 50 per cent. It's now more than that, and actually Betsi Cadwaladr does pretty well within the bunch of Welsh workers. We're looking for that to expand further, because there is a clear message about, especially, people who have direct contact with patients to undertake the flu vaccination. We've taken that further in the social care sector as well. So, this year, the community pharmacy sector will lead on the vaccination of front-line workers in residential care, too.
On your point about the vaccine for older workers, it's one of those health phrases—the adjuvanted vaccine: a vaccine that is more effective for people over the age of 65. Actually, the evidence from the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation is that it's likely to be the only vaccine effective in people over 75. So, that's going out in every one of the UK countries, and all four countries have had some supply challenges from the manufacturer. We're now in a position where we can be confident that all of that supply will be available for the end of this month, November, and it's being phased in its roll-out. The manufacturers acknowledge some of the challenges they've had in doing so, but of course we're learning lessons this season, not just at the end of it, and I'm confident, as I think every other UK country is too, there is going to be adequate supply of that vaccine both in GPs and in community pharmacies to actually have a proper uptake of our most vulnerable citizens, and, this year, a more effective vaccine for over-65s as well.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Helen Mary Jones.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I wanted to use my first spokesperson's questions to address issues in social care rather than health, as a symbol of how important people across this Chamber, particularly here in our party—. We see health and social care as an equal partnership, not one being more important than the other. So, can I ask the Minister for Social Services: does the Welsh Government know the number of registered nurses and care workers from countries within the EU that are currently working in care homes in Wales, and, if so, what are those figures?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Helen Mary, can I welcome you both to your spokesperson role, but also the way you've just laid out the importance of health and social care in the round? The Brexit stakeholder group that the Cabinet Secretary and I co-chair has looked at this issue. There is a relative paucity of data on the social care sector compared to the health sector. The health sector, we have quite accurate figures on the impact of Brexit, whether it's a 'no deal' or it's some transition, on the workforce within it. So, we have commissioned some work to go off and fill in some of those data gaps, but part of the data gaps is simply because of the wide, varied nature of the care sector. It's not as cohesive as the NHS that we have. But we've commissioned a piece of work to look at that, and, as soon as we are aware of that, I'm sure we will bring it back to the house then to see how we do it. But the reason we're doing it is exactly that: to see how we can prepare for if we are in a situation where we actually have to deal with loss of people from our social care workforce, which is so important for all those people that receive care from people who come to this country from all round the world, quite frankly, to provide care for our citizens.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Thank you for the response, Minister. I'm sure you would understand that, while taking on board what you've said about the complexity of the sector compared to the health sector, it is a source of frustration that we don't know, and, this close to Brexit, that we still don't have—whether you would ever be able to have as comprehensive and accurate a set of figures as we can have for the health service, but it is frustrating that you don't fully know that, and I share your concern, of course, about the potential impact on the workforce of Brexit, and if people are restricted in coming to work here.
Minister, you will be aware of last year's study by the BMJ that links cuts and austerity in social care to an increase in mortality in care homes. One of the mitigating measures, of course, as you will be aware, is the presence of fully qualified registered nurses staffing care home settings. Do you accept that there might be a risk to safety in care homes if Brexit and the immigration rules significantly affect the levels of registered nurses in care homes, and what are you able to do to mitigate that risk?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: We absolutely have to guard against that happening. We've made our views very clear to the UK Government, not only in terms of the need for our existing care staff to stay and be welcome here in Wales come what may, but also to avoid tightening up on rules either around the individuals who work in the front line or their families as well,because we have to deal with both. And one of our frustrations at the moment, both the Cabinet Secretary and myself, is that the UK Government is not receptive to our overtures, which we've made in writing, to say,'It's not good enough to say within health we'll pilot areas where we can have some sort of residency for individuals who are working with health.' That needs to be applied to social care, but it also needs to be applied sympathetically to their families, because why would you stay here, why wouldyou come and work here unless you also know your family is being looked after? So, we are—.
The uncertainty you mentioned, however, is a very fact of the chaos around the Brexitnegotiations—the fact that we're at this point over two years after the referendum where we still do not have crystal clarity on what we need to be planning for. But we are now planning, and we have been for some time, with our stakeholders, including with the care inspectorate, the care forum, with providers directly, to say, 'What are the impacts and, even with a complex sector, can we get the most accurate data on what the impact could be, particularly of no deal?'

Helen Mary Jones AC: Well, thank you, again, Minister. Obviously, nobody's going to blame the Welsh Government for Brexit, but I think it is appropriate that we raise some questions about how long it's taken to get this information, because, of course, there are many other reasons why we ought to have a better and clearer idea of what the skills mix and what the qualifications mix of our social care workforce is.
Of course, in the previous Assembly, we passed the legislation to create minimum nurse staffing levels in certain hospital settings. Those settings were chosen because there was robust evidence to prove that the levels of the staff nursing had an effect on patient outcomes. We now, of course, have theBritish Medical Journalstudy that shows that having qualified nursing staff in care homes can also have a similar impact on mortality and on outcomes. In principle, or on this side of the house, we would support the extension of that legislation ultimately to cover care home settings. We realise that that's aspirational at the moment, but wouldyou commit in principle to considering extending the Act to registered nurses in care home settings, providing the evidence is sufficiently robust in future?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: We will always keep our minds open on this, because I think you're right in saying that we always need to go with theevidence. And, of course, only in recent years, we've actually reviewed and renewed the guidance around nursing provision within the care home sector, recognising that, once again, care homes vary significantly in the type of residents they have—whether they need 24-hour cover,et cetera, etcetera. So, we have only fairly recently reviewed and renewed it. But we always keep an open mind about it based on the evidence, as opposed to simply saying,'Here's a number; if we hit that bottom number, then we provide safe nursing cover within thecare sector.' We probably need, if we're going to follow the evidence, also to do it in a very intelligent way that says, because of the quite diverse nursing needs within differentcare homes, whether those are with elderly infirm patients, whether it's with dementia patients—the differences will be significant. It could be different even from month to month or quarter to quarter, depending on the residents coming through. But I agree on theneed to make sure that the evidence tells us what should be safe nursing levels within thecare sector, and we'll always keep our minds open to evidence that's brought forward on that.

Conservative spokesperson—Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I'm sure that you are as horrified as I am to learn of the horrific failings and incidences of alleged abuse and neglect at the Pines residential home in Gwynedd. From the footage that has come to light at this home, there is apparent evidence of falsifying documents, medications hidden in residents' food, unsafe methods of moving residents and an overall lack of dignity and respect in their treatment and care. These are all incidences that fall well below what is expected within Wales and its own care regulations, all highlighted as a result of some investigative journalism shown last night on theYByd ar Bedwar S4C programme that I watched. What concerns me, Minister, is that this residential facility was already known to Care Inspectorate Wales and had a number of critical reports against its conduct and treatment of residents, but the poor treatment of its vulnerable adults has clearly continued. What is your Government doing alongside CIW to ensure that any facilities, such as the Pines residential home, are put on strict, meaningful improvement programmes, to ensure that the vulnerable residents are safeguarded against any malpractice or neglect?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you for the question, and yes, I've seen the programme Y Byd ar Bedwar, and we're very aware of the concerns that have been raised regarding the Pines in Criccieth, as is the care inspectorate. The inspectorate took immediate action on being made aware of those issues identified by S4C at the Pines, and its inspection is ongoing as we speak. Now, because of that, it's difficult for me to comment any further about the Pines itself at the moment, but you do rightly point out that, actually, there have been improvement plans and inspections previously that have led to improvement measures within this home. It’s right that the inspectorate is in there right now investigating the latest allegations, as they remain at the moment—allegations—and to see what needs to be done. But it is difficult for me to comment further on the Pines.
What I can say as well, though, is that the care inspectorate carried out over 600 inspections as part of its regular inspection and regulation regime last year, but, of course, it’s always able, on the reporting of any incidents of possible abuse, neglect or whatever, to actually go into a home at a moment’s notice, and that’s what it's done in this respect.
You asked also what can the Welsh Government do further? I think that there are things that we can do and that we are doing. Only a couple of years ago, this Assembly took forward the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016. That is significantly different, because, for example, that places quite firmly, within law, requirements on providers and designated responsible individuals for care homes so we know where the buck stops as well. But it also moves away from minimum standards of provision, which, if you have a minimum standard, people choose to meet the minimum standard and no more, and it focuses instead on continual improvement, which is what we want to get from all our care home settings. But it also places an emphasis on the importance of the individual—on their care, their support and on supporting them in what their needs are. We won't get there overnight on this, but this is what the Welsh Government can do: set the framework for both the regulator and for care homes to constantly drive improvement.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. It is vital, however, that any suggestions for improvement, whatever their nature, are taken seriously and that the well-being of vulnerable older people is at the heart of how care is delivered. But my concerns do not just relate to the rights of people within residential homes. As the Welsh Government pursue their 'A Healthier Wales' agenda, which sees more patients receiving care at home, how are you making arrangements to ensure that older people who are receiving care in their own homes can be safe and that they will receive the highest standard of care and that their well-being is supported by all members of the multidisciplinary team responsible for providing that care? The reason I ask that today is that, on Monday, I was shocked by the fact that one of my constituents has recently been very badly let down by the multidisciplinary team that are going into their home at the moment, which has led to their daughter asking for a thorough investigation to what they deem the neglect of their elderly father.
So, what regulations and inspectorate systems will be put in place to ensure that vulnerable adults are not neglected in their own homes? They are some of the most vulnerable members of our society and it is vital that we have an independent inspectorate body in place to visit people in their own homes and ensure that all their needs are being met and their rights respected. What work is taking place, Minister, to ensure that such a system is developed, as your Welsh Government, health boards and social services progress with a community care agenda?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I think, Janet, that there are a number of things that we can do. In fact, when Sarah Rochira left post back in June, I think it was, we stood here in the Senedd and we made that commitment to actually making rights real for older people and we laid out a number of the ways in which we would do that. You’re right in saying this is not simply to do with the care setting: it’s every setting that a person will be in—in their own home, close to home, in a care setting—that makes them have a good quality of life and shows that their rights are respected.
So, some of the practical things that we said: our legislative framework there is underpinned by the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2016. We said that we would, with the new commissioner, Heléna Herklots, co-produce practical guidance that demonstrates how to make those UN principles real for older people. We would take some of our initial work and focus it on the commissioning of services for older people, on safeguarding in all environments and on advocacy, because these are areas we need to get right if we’re going to support all older people to have voice and control over their health and social care in whatever setting.
But we’re also going to do things within the care home setting as well. So, we will update the 2009 guidance—it’s been too long since we’ve looked at that—in terms of how we escalate concerns about care within care homes. We will take advice from the NHS centre for equality and human rights on how to embed human rights into NHSpractice. We will, with Care Inspectorate Wales, build a narrative of human rights into care home inspection reports, in light of the earlier question, and many other aspects. One thing we said we would do with the new commissioner is to ask her to chair a working group for us on making those rights real, because it isn't simply about passing legislation, it's about making them bite.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, again. I've met with Heléna Herklots and I was very impressed. I know, going forward, she can't do everything, but one of the things she's going to focus on is elder abuse. The Welsh Conservatives have had long-standing commitments to ensure that the rights of older people in Wales are strengthened, and I am hugely supportive of my own colleague Darren Millar AM who is now bringing forward much needed legislation in this area. We know, Minister, that older people do not always know their rights, they do not always know when an injustice has been committed against them, and they do not always have the confidence to report this. This was most recently evidenced by the Crown Prosecution Service, which revealed that of the 35,000 crimes prosecuted in Wales last year just 250 were against the elderly. It is clear that we need to make a concerted effort to ensure that the rights of older people in Wales are strengthened, that older people know their rights, and public bodies have a duty to promote and to protect these. Can you today acknowledge that there is scope in this area to strengthen this with legislation and that you will work constructively with the proposed Bill, and, of course, those putting it through, to strengthen the rights of our older people here in Wales?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: The first thing to say in response is that all rights—older people's, children's rights, the rights of disabled people—are universal and they should be applied in that way. The other thing is I think there is cross-partysupport for driving the rights agenda as well. I think the question is how we best do that. I'm more than happy to work constructively with Darren and any Member who brings forward suggestions on a rights-based agenda to see whether legislation is the right way forward or whether there are alternative ways. I don't say that latter part of my sentence to row away from, but I think that making rights real is far more than only legislation. That's where, working with commissioners, we can draw out very practical ways for when we talk about older people in care homes, older people who have social care packages in their own homes and so on.
What strikes me is that if I go to a school in Swansea and I ask children about rights, they can articulate to me by the number what those rights are. They can tell me about right 31, the right to play. They can tell me about article 12, the right to be heard and to have grown-ups actually put their ideas in a process. But, if you go to an older person's group and say, 'Do you realise you have rights?', they'll say, 'Really?' So, we've got a way to go.
I'm more than happy to engage constructively on that, because I think we share the same aim. I would simply say in reciprocation, let's engage with it practically on what would be needed to actuallymake those rights real and make older people aware of the rights that they have, which are universal.

UKIPspokesperson—Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett AC: Diolch, Llywydd. A couple of weeks ago in the Assembly, I met with representatives from the Alzheimer's Society. During this meeting, I and some of my staff undertook a training and skills session to become dementia friends. The object of becoming a dementia friend is to learn some of the logistics of dementia—what dementia is, what causes is, what are the symptoms. Most importantly, it's designed to demonstrate how we can help people with dementia by better understanding their condition. Cabinet Secretary, could you give us an update on how the Welsh Government is helping to encourage more people to become dementia friendly?

Vaughan Gething AC: I'm happy to confirm that we work very well with a range of third sector organisations, including those people promoting dementia friends. I've met with Boots, for example, and becauseof the leadership in Wales, every Boots store in Wales has dementia friends on its staff, and they're looking to roll that out in the rest of the Boots company in other parts of the United Kingdom. Actually, there are lots of people in this room who have undertaken the dementiafriends training. I have, as have my staff, and I believe that Jayne Bryant has indicated she wants to try and encourage all of us to bedementia friends, so we can say we're the first legislature in the world that is fully dementia friendly. So, there is much we're doing to promote that campaign being run by one third sector organisation. It's part of actually becoming a dementia friendly nation, which, of course, is spelled out in the Welsh Government's dementia action plan.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thanks for that answer. That's encouraging to hear. Problems can be caused when people with dementia have to go into hospital, particularly if staff are not trained to meet the needs of those patients. What is the Welsh Government doing to ensure hospital staff at all levels understand how to care for and support people with dementia?

Vaughan Gething AC: As the Member for Caerphilly will know, I launched the Good Work training toolkit in Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr more than a year ago, and that's been developed by staff within the service working with the third sector so that we do understand the training needs of staff to provide that genuinely person-centred care for people with dementia—to understand what matters to them, to understand how being in an unfamiliar place, for most people, can be unsettling, but particularly for people who have dementia. So, it is absolutely part of where we are within the health service as part of the health contribution to the dementia action plan that we have. But, most importantly, I think, that is being overseen—that whole action plan, not just the training of the staff—. There is genuine engagement with people who are living with dementia in an oversight group for the plan. So, it won't simply be a report back from a Minister, whether it's me or somebody else in the future; you'll have the assurance of people living with dementia giving an honest assessment of where we are in taking forward the commitments we make in that plan. And, of course, we do have a mid-point review, where the public and, indeed, Members of this place can look at what progress we have made and what more we'll still, of course, need to do.

Gareth Bennett AC: There can be an additional problem, apart from what we've discussed so far, and that's the problem of stigma surrounding the condition of dementia. Can the Welsh Government do anything to help reduce this stigma surrounding the condition?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think this conversation, the conversation we've had and regularly have within this place and around it, is part of dealing with that stigma, for people to recognise that more and more people have dementia and will do in the future. It is a society-wide challenge and not something that people need to feel ashamed about at all. The stigma, though, often comes from people not wanting to acknowledge that they have the condition, and their families and carers not always wanting to. And that's difficult because, if you see someone's personality changing in particular, whether that's about a loss of memory or other changes that sometimes happen—because dementia affects different people in different ways—it's, if you like, a basket of potential conditions and outcomes. It can be difficult to accept that person, who you know and who you love, is somebody different in who they are and how they behave, even if they're still the same person who has brought you up, who has loved you and cared for you. And it's very difficult. I know that there are people in this Chamber who have gone through that experience, and outside as well. So, this is a genuine cross-party and cross-society campaign for decency and dignity and having better outcomes for people living with dementia and, of course, the research we will want to undertake to try and improve outcomes and, if at all possible, prevent dementia taking place in the first place. And in that, as with so many other things, we can do more ourselves to make choices that mean that we are less likely to have dementia ourselves in the future.

Cancer Outcomes in North Wales

Mandy Jones AC: 3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on cancer outcomes in North Wales? OAQ52938

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes. The Welsh Government does not routinely collect cancer survival data at health board level. However, all-Wales figures show one-year survival has improved by 3.2 percentage points between 2005-09 and the last reported five-year period of 2010-14, and five-year survival has improved by 3.3 percentage points over the same period of time. There is, of course, more to do.

Mandy Jones AC: Thank you. Cabinet Secretary, cancer does not discriminate. Gender, race or sexuality, cancer is not choosy. We are seeing that, increasingly, cancer doesn't discriminate against age either, and yet currently smear tests for cervical cancer start at age 25. By reducing the age of smear tests and cervical screening, we can save lives. We can tackle cell changes earlier and prevent cervical cancer. A number of my constituents have signed an online petition calling for the age to be lowered. Cabinet Secretary, will you look at reducing the age of screening, please?

Vaughan Gething AC: I recognisethe campaign in this area and in others over the age profiles for our national screening programmes and, indeed, bids for conditions not currently covered by screening programmes to continue. We, as does every other UK Government, follow the expert advice from the Joint CommitteeonVaccinationandImmunisation, an independent expert body that gives us advice on the very best evidence for how to make the biggest difference.FootnoteLink And, at present, their advice is that we should not have a national screening programme for people under the age of 25.
Now, that does not mean that nobody under the age of 25 will potentially have cervical cancer. The challenge is whether there's real benefit to be gained for the population by having a population-wide screening programme, because some screening programmes have potential harm for people as well. So, the challenge is that balance in risk and the advice that we have, and I think it's one of those instances where politicians really should be guided by the evidence. As I say, that does come from independent expertise that advises every single Government in the UK. But, of course, as you heard earlier, we'll always review the evidence as to what we could and should do.

Information further to Plenary

Mark Isherwood AC: Endoscopy services are key to ensuring the early diagnosis and detection of cancers such as bowel cancer, and 104 patients in north Wales needing an endoscopy are waiting over 24 weeks or 168 days. Betsi CadwaladrUniversity Local Health Board's latest board meeting said that endoscopyhave maximised this with backfill and additional weekend capacity, and a third endoscopyrun in the west, saying that some of the additional capacity is being used to address the backlog of urgent suspected cancer patients and patients referred by Bowel Screening Wales. But, it also states that although it's expected that the board will continue to meet its 31-day target, the 62-day target for patients newly diagnosed with cancer via the urgent suspected cancer route to start definitive treatment is at significant risk, particularly due to the pressure on endoscopy across BetsiCadwaladr. What work, therefore, is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that sustainable capacity is built in this area, so that no patient needing an endoscopyis exposed to waiting for longer than the Welsh Government's target waiting times?

Vaughan Gething AC: Mark, it is absolutely something that takes up time and attention within the Government and within the health service. The national health service Wales executive board has considered further action on endoscopy services. We're having an action plan to try to understand how we have better capacity in kit and also people, and how we do so properly. It's not just about the new faecal immunochemical test—it's more than one part of cancer and more than one part of healthcare.
You'll be pleased to know that the health committee is actually—I should give its full title of health, social care and sport, I think; I see the Chair behind me—is looking to have an inquiry on endoscopy services. We've submitted evidence to it, and I know there'll be much more scrutiny. So, I'll be more than happy, in this role or a different one, to come back to answer further questions either at that committee or, indeed, in this place on what we are doing and the effectiveness of the programme of work that we have.

The Availability of the Flu Vaccine

Nick Ramsay AC: 4. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the availability of the flu vaccine this winter? OAQ52954

Vaughan Gething AC: I'll be happy to do so, and I hope your question hasn't been answered by your colleague. I wrote to all Assembly Members on 1 November advising about arrangements for the supply of flu vaccines this year in the light of the phased delivery of the recommended vaccine for people aged 65 years of age and over.

Nick Ramsay AC: Something of a groundhog day here, Cabinet Secretary, but Darren Millar did ask about this area as many other AMs have, like me, received e-mails from constituents concerned about the availability of the vaccine in question. The most recent e-mail I received was from a 75-year-old from Abergavenny, who was unable to receive the vaccine as his local GP practice has limited stocks and is prioritisingcurrently over-75-year-olds.
I understand from your earlier answer that part of the problem was surgeries and community pharmacies ordering too little of the vaccine to start with. That's something that Age Cymru have reported. I also hear you when you say that stocks will be available by the end of this month, in time for the flu season. But, what can be done to better get this message out there? Currently, older people are anxious, I think it's fair to say, about this delay. I think it would be helpful if the message was communicated that the flu season hasn't started yet and that they will be vaccinated in time. Currently there are concerns, and I think that the Welsh Government does need to alleviate those concerns.

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, I'm happy to reprovide the reassurance that you seek. This year, we have a better, more effective vaccine for people aged over 65. It is a phased supply—that was a challenge in the manufacture and supply of that vaccine, rather than GPs or community pharmacies underordering. By the end of this month—by the end of November—the supplies should be available in Wales and across the rest of the UK. So, people should contact their healthcare providers of choice for the flu vaccine, whether that's a community pharmacy or, indeed, a GP surgery, to arrange for themselves to be vaccinated.The message is that the vaccine is going to be available, contact your healthcare provider and make sure you get yourself protected from flu this winter.

The Supply of Pharmaceutical Drugs

Hefin David AC: 5. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on contingency plans for the continued supply of pharmaceutical drugs to NHS Wales in the event of a no-deal Brexit? OAQ52945

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, we are working with the UK Government, which has instructed medicines manufacturers and suppliers to, at present, maintain an extra six weeks’ worth of their products, over and above their usual reserves. We will, of course, continue to work with the UK Government to make sure that we do all that we can should the United Kingdom leave the European Union.

Hefin David AC: My question leads from a concern raised by a constituent specifically about the supply of insulin to Britain in the event of a 'no deal'Brexit. He raised concerns following remarks made by the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency's Sir Michael Rawlins, who warned on 30 July that insulin is not manufactured in Britain, all of it has to be imported and it cannot be transported like other prescription drugs because it's temperature controlled. I submitted a written question to the health secretary—to you—during the summer recess about this, asking what action you were taking, and the response was that you were in regular discussions with the UK Department of Health and you'd keep my office and Assembly Members updated. So, my question is: given the uncertainty that surrounds Brexit at the moment, have there been any significant developments on this matter since I asked my written question?

Vaughan Gething AC: The challenge comes with a 'no deal'Brexitand our ability to prepare for the possibility that the United Kingdom crashes out of the European Union at the end of March next year. I don't think I should try to provide false reassurance that all will be well. For every Government, though, in the UK, it is in every Government's interests to make sure that we do all that we can. So, this is about how we try and make sure there is enough supply available. That is still about the arrangements with other countries, because you're right—you can't simply transfer all medicines across borders and not worry about their shelf life. There are approximately 14,500 people with type 1 diabetes in Wales, so this is an issue of real concern. There is a limited supply of insulin within this country, but nothing like enough to care for all of those people with type 1 diabetes. I'm not in a position to provide you with a detailed update at present on this particular issue, but I certainly will do so as soon as it's available because, as I say, it's something that bothers me, and it should bother all of us if a 'no deal'Brexit really does happen, about how we do all that we can in each part of the UK.

David Melding AC: Cabinet Secretary, the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee has heard this issue, and insulin was raised, as were radionuclides, which are essential for scanning equipment. I think what the Government has to do, in co-operation with the UK Government, is set in place arrangements over these key medicines and products about how that would be handled. I don't think for a moment the European Union will resist special measures over these very specific products that have problems with their shelf life and temperature in particular. You have to get on with this, and not just say, 'We want to avoid a cliff-edge Brexit'. I do as well. You have to have plans about how to deal with it in these specific areas.

Vaughan Gething AC: There are real practical conversations going on between every health department from every nation within the UK, and on this, actually, it's an issue where I and the Scottish health secretary have written to Matt Hancock seeking a meeting to try and put some of the politics aside and to have a practical, face-to-face conversation about what each of us can do. I've yet to have a positive response to the joint offer of a meeting, but I think it would be sensible for Ministers who have responsibility for health departments to have that conversation on a very practical level, because the challenge comes in the fact that the UK Government is acting for the UK in having this conversation on the supply of medicines and products with a limited shelf life. Now, I'm not in control of the conversation with European Union partners. I don't believe they want to punish the UK at all, but there must be some common sense about our arrangements with the rest of the European Union to make sure that that supply is not interrupted. But I can't give you the reassurance you seek that all is necessarily going to be well. I can give you the reassurance that this Government is a willing and genuine partner in looking for an answer, should the United Kingdom leave without satisfactory arrangements in other areas.

Pressures on GPs

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 6. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on increased pressures on GPs in North Wales? OAQ52965

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes. We recognise there are challenges but remain committed to supporting our hard-working GPs and their practice teams throughout Wales. Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board has recently appointed a new executive director of primary care and community services, Dr Chris Stockport, and he will lead and oversee the adoption and adaptation of the primary care model for Wales across the health board to try and help ease pressures on general practice within north Wales.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you for that response. Of course, in addition to the seasonal pressures and the usual pressures that we see on doctors and the health service, there are other problems emerging directly from some of this Government’s policies. The local development plan in Wrexham, for example, anticipates that an additional 10 GPs will be required because of the increase driven in housing development as a result of those local development plans. So, what’s the Government doing to ensure that sufficient numbers of doctors are available to meet the increasing demand that there will be as a direct result of the local development plan in Wrexham, but also across north Wales and across the whole of Wales?

Vaughan Gething AC: There is always a challenge in linking population growth and housing development with the provision of a range of services including healthcare services. We'll have the same practical challenge in delivering Wylfa Newydd as well. It's a challenge and it's about a conversation with local general practice themselves, but also the wider team as well. The health board are developing a north Wales primary care academy to co-ordinate and develop local training, mentorship and professional development opportunities. They're also looking at how to rearrange and reorganiseprimary care. In north-east Wales in particular, it's one of the key priorities for Dr Stockportbecause we recognise the additional pressure there. That is likely to mean that clusters will need to take on more responsibility with new leadership and arrangements for those practicesthat have handed their contracts back.
I recogniseit's a real and practical challenge to maintain and safeguard what we have and to develop it for the future, but the new model for primary care is not simply a reorganisation delivered by Government; it's actually got buy-in from a range of our partners including the Royal College of General Practitioners and the British Medical Association's general practice committee as well. The challenge is how we make it work not if we can make it work, and the different roles that healthcare professionals will have to play to provide the high-quality healthcare that every single part of Wales should be entitled to.

Mark Isherwood AC: Despite warnings year after year by the Royal College of General Practitioners and the British Medical Association, the number of registered GPs working in Wales is at its lowest level in five years. In 2014, the Royal College of General Practitioners warned that the share of Welsh NHS funding for patient care in general practice had been falling for years, and in the same year the north Wales local medical committee came to this Assembly and warned that several practices had been unable to fill vacancies and many GPs were seriously considering retirement because of their currently expanding workload. Why, therefore, did Welsh Government practice receive the lowest share of NHSspend in the United Kingdom last year despite the rise in patient demand?

Vaughan Gething AC: The way in which we allocate finance across the service is to try and meet current and future needs. In particular, we're investing in a healthier Wales, and I've made it very clear that as activity is moved around our health and care system, I expect resources to be moved around to enable that to happen. If we look at the broader definition of primary care for all those different primary care services, we actually fund primary care at the same level as they do in Scotland.
The challenge is the right numbers of professionals in the right place to deliver the service that we want. In that regard, looking at the future, we overfilled the year before last on GP training and we had a 98 per cent fill rate in GP speciality training last year here in Wales—the best percentage figures of any UK country. We're looking to slightly expand those numbers and we're looking at a review headed up by Health Educationand Improvement Wales this year to look again at how we actually recruit GPs, and included within that is a look at the numbers for training as well.
In terms of making the job easier and a better job for GPs as well, at the recent primary care conference there was a positive message from Charlotte Jones from the BMAabout the partnership that exists between GPs themselves, the NHSand the Government, and in particular, the moves forward we've made on the indemnity scheme and the further work we're doing on clusters.
So, not everything is perfect, there are still challenges for all of us to address, but I actually think we're in a good place for that partnership to work. We have a committed group of general practitioners who want to make primary care work with other healthcare professionals. We have the right plan; the challenge will be delivering it in a very contested environment and an environment where we need to do things differently in the future. But that is what this Government is committed to doing.

Services in South-East Wales

Jayne Bryant AC: 7. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to improve health and social care services in south-east Wales? OAQ52968

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you. On 8 November, the Cabinet Secretary for health announced around £13.4 million funding from the transformation fund to support improved access to services in Gwent. The Gwent proposal focuses on prevention, well-being, and new seamless models of health and care, delivered closer to home. We're delighted to say that it also includes the development of a pan-Gwent integrated system of emotional and mental well-being for children and young people. This confident and ambitious programme is supported by the Gwentregional partnership board.

Jayne Bryant AC: Thank you, Minister, andas you've mentioned, you and the Cabinet Secretary made the recent announcement of the £13.4 million investment in health and social care services in Gwent during your visit to the Serennu children's centre in Rogerstone. The centre and its dedicated staff have been providing an invaluable service to children with complex needs from across Newport and the wider region since it opened in 2011. I know from speaking to children, parents and staff, both past and present, that the centre has transformed the lives of those who use it and their families. The Serennu centre is unique in its provision: treatment, care, information, consultations and leisure services all under one roof. Children can benefit from the continuity of care and this significantly eases the burden on families. So, can the Minister set out how the centre will be used as an excellent example of the way health and social care services are delivered locally?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Jayne. I think the Cabinet Secretary and I were blown away by the conversations that we had with parents and staff and young people themselves there, who were eloquent in their praise for whatthe centre is doing, and also, I have to say, by how it fits in within the approach that we're now taking across Gwent, because the principles they have there areabout being focused on the individual, about co-production of solutions that wrap around the individual, about working on early intervention and prevention with families and young people, giving them that support at the right time in the right way.
Well, that was the ideal place, I have to say, to launch not only the overall transformation proposal that they have but also the aspects around children and young people. One of the interesting aspects being taken forward in Gwent, on a pan-Gwent basis, is that they're trying to embed their version, a Welsh version, a Gwent version, of the iceberg model, which I know the CYPE committee has looked at in detail—it's interested Members here from the Assembly—and which looks at that more integrated work across organisational boundaries. It looks at the early intervention, the right support at the right time, so that, in terms of thingslike mental health and well-being, child and adolescent mental health services are not the only game in town. It's a much more holistic approach and involving children and young people, reflecting their voice in the design of services. The Serennu centre does all of that. I said to them when I left there that I look forward to coming back and spending some more time there, because it's a joy to behold and we need to see more of that, and ofthis approach, I have to say,which they're taking across Gwent, right across Wales. And that's the idea of the transformation fund—that you don't just do it in Gwent; you then learn the lessons and then you upscale it and you say, 'Can we do this right across Wales?'

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: In September, around a third of patients, 22,300 people, who attended A&E at the Royal Gwent Hospital waited more than four hours to be dealt with. Just over 66.4 per cent were seen inside four hours, compared to the Welsh Government target of 95 per cent. Only two A&E units in Wales produced a worse performance. What action will the Cabinet Secretary take to improve waiting times at A&E at the Royal Gwent Hospital to ensure it meets the targets his own department has set?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: The Cabinet Secretary heard what the Member just said, and we continue to work on improvement within A&E because we're never complacent about it, but we do have areas where performance, as you highlighted, is working, but it's not consistent. So, what we need to do is work with the health boards to put the onus on them to make sure that they are bringing down those waiting times within A&E and working with the Welsh ambulance service as well to make sure there is a seamless transfer of patients, that there is effective discharge and so on. So, we're not complacent about this at all, but there are areas of very good practice within the Welsh NHS. We need to make those areas of good practice commonplace.

Question 8, Angela Burns.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you. Good fielding. [Laughter.]

The New Treatment Fund

Angela Burns AC: 8. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on new medicine being distributed through the new treatment fund? OAQ52942

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, I'm happy to do so. By the end of October, the new treatment fund had provided patients throughout Wales with faster access to 146 new medicines for a wide range of medical conditions. The average time taken to make medicine available is now 17 days. That is a reduction of 81 per cent.

Angela Burns AC: That's to be welcomed, Cabinet Secretary. I'm sure you know that, in May, there was a national roll-out in England of the use of 5-ALA treatment, which is a technique that assists physicians in the removal of brain tumours. This technique has led to demonstrably improved outcomes for patients. The 2018 NICE clinical guidance recommends that, in appropriate cases, patients take5-amino levulinic acid prior to surgery. The All Wales Medicines Strategy Group also recommends this treatment. As you're aware, a patient's geographical location will dictate where their brain tumour is treated. In north Wales, the centre of excellence is Liverpool's Walton Centre; elsewhere for Wales we go to Cardiff university hospital. My concern is that whilst a hospital in Liverpool is making use of this treatment, surgeons at university hospital in Cardiff are not. Are you able to ask for clarity on this unequal situation, and would you be able to use the new treatment fund to facilitate uptake of this innovative methodology that could help patients retain so much more of themselves after brain surgery?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes. I am aware of the availability of the new treatment. I don't actually think it's specifically an area for the new treatment fund, but I will, nevertheless, look into the differences that you've outlined between north and south Wales, and I'll happily come back and report to Members when I'm in a position to do so.

Angela Burns AC: Thank you.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Topical Questions

The next item, therefore, is the topical questions, and the first is from Mick Antoniw.

Cardiff Airport

Mick Antoniw AC: 1. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with Cardiff Airport in light of reports that the airline Flybe is to be sold? 234

Ken Skates AC: I've held discussions with airport executives myself, and my officials maintain regular contact with Cardiff Airport, and they're continuing to work closely with Flybe. All flights to and from the airport are operating normally and, of course, the sale of the company is just one option that the company is considering.

Mick Antoniw AC: Cabinet Secretary, thank you for the answer. You'll understand the reason why I've raised the question. The airport, since it came into public ownership, has been remarkably successful. In the last year, there's been 9 per cent growth, which was on top of 16 per cent growth the previous year, and 15 per cent growth in passenger numbers since it was taken out of private ownership and into the public sector. It has recently been named as the best under 3 million airport in the UK. It has increased incoming passenger numbers from 24 to 30 per cent. There are new airlines, new routes. In July 2018, it was the second best time performance airport in the whole of the UK; and, in 2017, it was awarded a five-star status.
Of course, turning around an airport after years of decline is not easy, and I wonder what assurances the Cabinet Secretary can give us in terms of the Government's long-term strategy with regard to the importance of the airport as part of the Welsh economy, as a major employer, and also the long-term strategy to ensure that success continues in what are very, very difficult times for the airport industry, but to the benefit of the Welsh economy.

Ken Skates AC: Well, can I thank Mick Antoniw for his question and also for recognising the remarkable success of Cardiff Airport since the Welsh Government purchased that particular asset? The aim, of course, the long-term strategy—which was outlined in the master plan during the summer—is to grow the airport to accommodate 3 million passengers annually. I'd also like to put on record my thanks to the incredible team at Cardiff Airport who are responsible for the success that Mick Antoniw has outlined.
It's worth stating with regard to Flybe that, based on discussions that have taken place between the airport and the company, we are aware that there are no plans for any radical changes to the route network. There are no plans whatsoever to ground planes, and there are no plans whatsoever either to cut the number of routes. Members will be aware that the company are in talks with potential strategic partners and, again, I should state that the sale option is one of several options that are currently being examined. If a sale went ahead, then it would be recognised that Cardiff international airport has been part of the successful story of Flybe over many years.
In addition to the services that are operated by Flybe, we've recently seen Cardiff international airport successfully work with TUI in introducing an expanded service through the addition of another aircraft; KLM are increasing capacity at Cardiff international airport; we know about the new route to Doha operated by Qatar Airways; and Cardiff international airport are also in discussions with Ryanair. We know that Ryanair intend to double the number of services next year, providing a hugeopportunity, potentially, forCardiff international airport. We will go on supporting this major asset, not just for south Wales, but for the whole of Wales. Our international airport is hugely important in terms of its strategic fit with our transport plans for the future of Wales. We are proud of its success, and we look forward to its success continuing for many years to come.

Andrew RT Davies AC: The news was alarming last week, obviously, that Flybe have put themselves up for sale, because, in some markets, they are a very successful airline and achieve real growth. In the early years of the Government's ownership, significant loans were made to Cardiff Airport, with the purchase price on the loans in excess, now, of £100 million, I believe the slate talks of. Part of that money was made available to secure Flybe to the airport, and if you look at Flybe's accounts, the aircraft are actually chartered to Cardiff Airport, which is quite a unique way of accounting for those aircraft.
What security has the Minister had given to him that no Government money is at risk should the worst-case scenario happen and Flybe cease trading? None of us want to see that happen, and, hopefully, the best option, which would be to secure the long-term viability of Flybe, either through a partnership or a purchase, will actually expand route development out of Cardiff. But there is a significant amount of public money being put on the table to secure the Flybe route, and it is incumbent on the Cabinet Secretary to give Members assurance that that money is secure and is able to be transferred to a new operator, should Flybe cease their routes out of Cardiff.

Ken Skates AC: I can assure the Member that whilst, on the one side, the loan with Cardiff international airport is, of course, commercially sensitive, the airport is currently within its terms of the loan agreement, and that money is secure. But I think it's important that we don't talk down—and the Member is right to state that we should not talk down—the prospects for Flybe. It's been an incredibly successful company, and in terms of the services operating to and from Cardiff Airport, we've seen a good increase in the number of passengers using that particular air carrier.
I do think that Flybe and Cardiff Airport have worked exceptionally well together, and that's why talks have been so productive since last week's announcement. Of course, the sale may be the eventual outcome, but I believe, based on the performance of Flybe, that a strategic partnership, or a successful sale, is highly likely. We know that the factors that have contributed to the challenges facing Flybe have concerned issues such as information technology systems. These can be overcome with the help of a strategic partner, and that's what I hope we will see for Flybe.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: One element of this that hasn't been given a great deal of coverage, if any, I believe, over the past week is the fact that Flybe, through its subsidiary Eastern Airways, runs the link between Anglesey and Cardiff, which is a service that's more popular than it’s ever been. And I congratulate the Welsh Government in that regard.
Can you, as Cabinet Secretary, tell us or share any concerns that you may have on the impact of the current Flybe difficulties on that contact, and inform us of any assurances that you have sought or received already in relation to that crucial service?

Ken Skates AC: Well, can I thank the Member for his question? It's very timely, actually, because it's my intention to announce shortly the outcome of the tendering process for that particular air link. The Member is absolutely right: we have seen great success since the route has been operated by Eastern Airways. I believe that passenger numbers have increased by something in the order of 40 per cent, demonstrating the growing demand for the Cardiff to north-west Wales air link.
I will be making an announcement soon. I wouldn't want to pre-empt any announcement that I will make, but I am confident that the arrangements that have been in place are fit for purpose, have been successful and could continue into the future. I see no reason why Flybe, given its performance to date, would collapse. There is a strong interest in the company, both in terms of its fit with potential partners or as a potential purchase by another airline, and that could include—dependent on the outcome that I'll be announcing soon—inclusion of the Eastern Airways link between Cardiff and Anglesey.

Jane Hutt AC: Can I join the Cabinet Secretary and Members in praising the management of Cardiff Airport in my constituency? I welcome the latest passenger figures for the airport, which show thatduring the last financial year total passengers grew, year on year, by 9 per cent to reach 1.48 million.
As it has been suggested that air passenger duty has been a particularly detrimental factor for Flybe, what representations is the Welsh Government continuing to make regarding devolving air passenger duty, which is clear would have a beneficial impact for Cardiff Airport and for Wales, and, of course, receives cross-party support in this Assembly?

Ken Skates AC: It's very interesting—Jane Hutt makes a really important point about the role that air passenger duty could play in assisting and making Flybemore competitive, because it's my understanding that something in the region of 80 per cent of Flybe's flights are subject to the double whammy of domestic route APD. Clearly, if that were to be devolved and we could either abandon it or significantly reduce it, then that would assist Flybeand it would also make air services more competitive for passengers.
The UK Government has said that it is open to reviewing the devolution of APDif new evidence comes to light, and I think what we've learnt from Flybein the last week is that if the removal of APDcould be secured through devolution, then, clearly, that would be sufficient evidence to justify the devolution of APD, because it could assist in thecompany being more competitive. The Welsh Affairs Committee are currently looking at this issue, and the Welsh Government have contributed evidence to that inquiry. Also, we commissioned consultants, Northpoint, to look at the potential outcome of abolishing the tax on all flights. They found that it could raise the number of passengers using Cardiff Airport by more than 650,000 per year, in a very short space of time—in just seven years. That would be an incredible increase in the number of passengers and it would assist the airlines that operate from there, including Flybe.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The second question is also to be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport, and the question is to be asked by Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Train Services

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on train services following Transport for Wales's public apology for shortcomings in services? 236

Ken Skates AC: Yes. Storm Callum, autumn conditions and the dreadful quality of the rolling stock we inherited from ArrivaTrains Wales have impacted the operation of rail services. Transport for Wales is implementing a recovery plan and passengers will see consequential service improvements each day over the next few weeks.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Maybe in your subsequent answer, you might want to join with Transport for Wales in apologisingfor the inconvenience that has been caused to travellers over the past few weeks. I personally thought the First Minister was hugely defensive yesterday when criticism was put to him of the situation on Wales's railways, and many thousands of passengers have suffered, failing to get to work or failing to get from work. My own daughter was standing on a platform at Aberystwyth on Sunday afternoon waiting for the train, which was on time, according to the sign—it just didn't turn up. Now, anybody who knows Aberystwythstation, you've got pretty good warning that that train's not coming. But the train didn't arrive. This isn't acceptable. As I say, I thought the First Minister was very defensive in saying, 'We didn't promise to transform rail in a month.' Well, we weren't criticisingGovernment for not transforming rail within a month. The point that was being made was that things had gone backwards at quite a rate over a matter of weeks. And it's not too much, I don't think, to expect Welsh Government to be a little bit contrite and to say, 'Yes, sorry. Things aren't really going as they can.'
Now, I've learnt a bit over the past few days in terms of reasons that have been given for so many trains being taken out of service. I had to read it twice—I thought it was a problem with flat tyres. I know enough about trains that it wasn't that, but flat wheels is a problem that comes from trains sliding on leaves and so on. So, yes, we recognisethat there are problems and we recognisealso, I guess, that there would be teething problems. I support, in principle, having Transport for Wales, so this isn't somehow wishing Government to fail, because we want a better rail service. But can you this afternoon, perhaps accompanied with that apology from Welsh Government to Welsh passengers, tell us what kind of timescale we should be working to now when people can expect that the train service will get back to normal, and, considering people wanted a better service andwere looking forward to seeing the end of the last franchise so that we could start a new chapter, give us the assurances that we need today?

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his question? First of all, he makes the assertion that services have gone backwards. In fact, despite the recent difficulties, this first four-week periodof the operation of the new franchise and the new contract has seen higher levels of performance than the equivalent period last year, including punctuality. Now, some Conservatives are, I hear, laughing. The fact of the matter is that the previous contract was not fit for purpose.
The Member is right to identify flattened wheels. Now, what we have discovered, because you ask for the reasons, and I think it is absolutely right that passengers understand the reasons for problems with rail services—. Transport for Wales have discovered that, unfortunately, an ageingfleet of trains that they have inherited—an appalling fleet of trains—did not see investment made, which therefore led to a lack of modern technology being adopted on the rolling stock, and this includes, importantly, wheel slide protection. Wheel slide protection is what prevents services from being cancelled or postponed in autumn periods, and the trains were not given the wheel slide protection. Why? Because market forces—the form of capitalism we operate—led to the operator deciding that it would rather have profits than put wheel slide protection on the trains. That will stop. That will stop. By next autumn, every train that Transport for Wales operates will get wheel slide protection.
Now, in addition, I've asked for a full appraisal of other reasons why we have seen the disruption on the Wales and borders network in recent days. I'll be assessing whether it was just down to the wheels, or whether there was another contributing factor, such as more leaves on the line than we have found, or whether it was because the trains were poorly maintained in the lead-up to the transfer of the franchise to Transport for Wales. We know that the inheritance of the fleet of trains did not suit passengers as it should have done—the trains themselves are appalling—and these will be replaced in just a matter of months. The first of the replacement trains will be coming on track—the Vivarail trains, the Geralds and the 769s will all be delivered next year. Every pacer will be removed next year, and as I said, by autumn of next year every single train will have wheel slide protection fitted.
I have to say as well, Deputy Presiding Officer, that I've had reports of dead rats in inspection pits at the point when the franchise was handed over. This is what Transport for Wales have been dealing with, and Transport for Wales, to their credit, have managed the transfer of the rail services, I think, of course during an incredibly difficult time, with unprecedented floods—the worst floods in some parts for 30 years.

Russell George AC: I have to say, Cabinet Secretary, I have been quite complimentary of the Welsh Government with regard to its rail franchise. I think I'm on record as saying you've been heroically ambitious with regard to the rail franchise, but in doing so you have, of course, set a high bar, and in doing that you have set expectations of passengers. Now, in the summer, you said that in the coming weeks you will deliver groundbreaking transformation, and we're now, of course, in month 2 of the new rail franchise, and Transport for Wales. And where are we now? We've had the statement from Transport for Wales last night to AMs, which was, I think, appreciated, and I welcome that. It talks about the effects of storm Callum, but I have to say, the effects of storm Callumhappened right across the UK, and it seems that other areas of the country have bounced back, but we haven't here in Wales. The update provided no explanation about why priorities are being taken in the way they have, so I'm not so much asking you about why this has happened, but why they have made the priorities that they have.
I had a Facebook comment last night off a Dawn Jones, who said, 'Please help'. Her daughter goes from Newtown to Wrexham college and she's stuck, she can't go for her education. She's pointing out that the service also picks up students in Newtownand Welshpool to go to Shrewsburycollege. Well, the 08:40 from Aberystwyth to Shrewsburylast week was cancelled four times out of five—that's an 80 per cent cancellation rate. If you look at the cancellation rate on the Valleys lines, it's less than 1 per cent. The difficulties for passengers are greater where infrequent services are cancelled than where services are frequent, and this is the issue here. So, can I ask you a series of questions around priorities?

No, you can ask a question—a question, not a series.

Russell George AC: What is the rationale for preventing cancellations on Valley lines by cancelling services in other areas, which is what is effectively happening? Does Transport for Wales's service contract include a different performance requirement for the Valley lines, and why is it that the Cardiff Bay service is regarded as a higher priority of use per unit, when Cardiff Bus operates a frequent high-capacity bus from Cardiff Central station to Cardiff Bay? When Transport for Wales, each day, makes its planned cancellations, does it take into account the social and economic impact of those issues as well, such as onBetws-y-Coed and Tenby, which have year-on-year tourism, or in Newtown and Welshpool, where students go to college on an infrequent service?
So, can I ask, finally: will Transport for Wales modify its criteria for prioritising cancellations to ensure that the burden is spread more equally than it is now?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for his question and assure him that there is no loss of ambition as far as the Transport for Wales rail franchise is concerned. There still will be £800 million spent on new rolling stock, £194 million on station investment—contrast that with just £600,000 that was spent over the last 15 years—an extra 285 services, 600 new jobs, a 25 per cent reduction in carbon emissions, new services from next spring, replacement rolling stock from next spring. Change is coming, but I do accept that there is frustration amongst passengers and passenger groups. As I said, there have been unprecedented weather conditions, and the Member is right that other rail services might not have suffered quite so badly, but that's because, probably, other rail services had the investment that Arriva Trains Wales rolling stock should have had. And, as I've said previously, the wheel sliding protection was not there to prevent trains from being taken off line.
There are no arbitrary prioritisedcancellations of certain services over others. The prioritisation is based on a number of factors, including the availability of bus replacement services. However, I am conscious of the need to assure people that fair play is being applied across Wales and across all services. I will seek to have Transport for Wales write to all Members with the rationale for prioritisingservice cancellations, and replacement services as well.

Joyce Watson AC: The only thing I want to add, because I'm not going to repeat everything, is that there is an urgency to get to the bottom of what went wrong, and you've identified a few issues. The urgency is that we don't end up in a situation where the people who have used that service, and the people we were hoping would use that service, don't get put off and disillusioned, so that the numbers are negatively and significantly affected in an irreversible manner, because we really want people to use the train services that we have, and you have, invested in and secured agreementto deliver.
I am pleased that the company have apologised, and I am personally really sorry that people have been inconvenienced right across my region, as I'm sure you are, Cabinet Secretary. And I suppose that the key question is here—. I understand that, in some places, like Blaenau Ffestiniog to Llandudno, there are replacement bus services operating. Will those replacement bus services be adequate to replace the missing train services, so that people can move around the region in a way that they were hoping they could?

Ken Skates AC: Well, I think Joyce Watson touches on a very important point concerning the integration of various forms of public transport. Joyce talks about the need to ensure that replacement bus services are adequate. Well, I think once I'm able to outline reform to public local bus services, and proposals for future legislation, Members will be able to appreciate how we'll go about better integrating rail and bus services to ensure that end-to-end points are as seamless as they can possibly—end-to-end travel is as seamless as it can possibly be.
I should just point out again that the previous contract was let on the basis of zero passenger growth over a 15-year period, and so, consequently, at the point that we inheritedan abysmal fleet of trains, trains were already overstretched and over capacity. During the autumn months, when trains have been damaged—when the wheel sets have been damaged—that has contributed to an exacerbation of capacity issues. It’s something that Transport for Wales are dealing with. They’ve put in train now a programme of remedial works. We’re looking at whether additional mitigation options, such as the use of wheel lathes outside of Wales, can be utilised to address the current maintenance backlog.
But I would, again, just say that storm Callum was unprecedented in many parts of Wales and I think it'd be remiss of me not to put on record my thanks to staff on the network who kept as many services running as possible and, in many cases, were involved in some scary incidents, where trees were hitting trains, where trains were having to run through pretty significant levels of floodwater.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Cabinet Secretary, I invite you again to apologise, because I noticed that you haven’t put an apology on the record yet. But could I see some clarification in relation to the statement that was put out by Transport for Wales yesterday—a welcome statement to give us an overview of the situation? They talk of, out of the 127 engines available to them, 36 are off the tracks, as it were, in the workshops, in the second paragraph. It then goes on to say that, 'Additionally, we currently have 21 units withdrawn from service'. So, if you put the 36 and the 21 together, you’ve nearly got half the fleet out of action. Can you confirm that that is the case and that the 769 locomotives that you announced back in July 2017, which were due to enter service in May 2018, are available to the franchise so that they can bolster the fleet, or are we still waiting for those engines to come into service?

Ken Skates AC: First of all, in terms of apologies, there should have been an apology long ago for the under-investment—terrible and historic under-investment—in rail infrastructure in Wales; 1 per cent of funding for what amounts to a double-digit percentage of rail track. It has to be said that we haven’t yet found categoric evidence that it’s the tracks that have been the problem, but it could well be that a contributing factor is the poor infrastructure that trains are actually operating on. Certainly, earlier in the year, with a cracked track, that was part of the problem for rail services being cancelled in many parts of Wales.
Now, additional rolling stock has, as a consequence of Welsh Government intervention, been introduced to the network. But we are examining many ways that we can bring additional rolling stock on a short-term basis to Wales, whilst the Vivarail, 769 and Geraldtrains are delivered. It’s important that people recognise, Deputy Presiding Officer, that Transport for Wales is doing all it can to source additional rolling stock for the network, whilst at the same time working 24/7 to make sure that those trains that have been damaged due to storm Callum are brought back on the tracks as soon as possible.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

4. 90-second Statements

Item 4 on our agenda this afternoon is 90-second statements and the first this week is Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much. This week is part of the United Nation’s annual 16 Days of Activism campaign to fight against gender-based violence. The purpose of the campaign is to draw global attention to the huge problem of violence against women by urging action at a local, national and global level to tackle it. The courage and determination of the women who are part of organisations such as #MeToo and Time’s Up have shed light on experiences that are entirely unacceptable. This isn’t simply a problem for Hollywood, of course. One in four women in England and Wales have experienced domestic abuse since the age of sixteen. Over 0.5 million women had experienced sexual assault in 2016-17. One in seven students has experienced sexual or physical assault whilst at university.
Let us state clearly and unambiguously today: no woman or girl in Wales should have to live in fear of violence or sexual harassment. For years, silence and stigma have allowed violence against women to continue. In order to end this violence against women and girls in Wales once and for all,we need resources and action immediately and at a sufficient scale to meet the demands. Certainly, we need to support every woman and girl in Wales who has experienced these terrible experiences.

Thank you. Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, this Saturday, 24 November, Ukraine and the international community mark the day of remembrance of the victims of Stalin's artificial famine of 1932-33 known as the Holodomor, which, in Ukrainian, means 'death by hunger'. As a Welsh parliamentarian, I will be attending the commemoration in Kiev.
It was a famine created by Stalin to enforce collectivisation of agriculture and to break Ukrainian resistance to Russian Soviet rule. There were more than 4,000 uprisings against this policy, which were ruthlessly suppressed. In December 1932 the central committee of the Communist Party ordered that all grain, including sowing seeds, be seized. Villages that failed to co-operate were blacklisted and deliberately starved to death, and an estimated 1 million people deported to Siberia. An estimated 4 million to 6 million perished. It is estimated that around two thirds of these were children. Precise figures are impossible, because Stalin ordered all records to be destroyed.
Welsh journalist Gareth Jones, who is honoured in Ukraine, witnessed the Holodomor and was one of the few journalists with the courage to report on the scale of the famine and its causes. Many countries around the world have recognised the Holodomor as an act of genocide. The 9 December this year is the seventieth anniversary of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the CrimeofGenocide, adopted in 1948. This Saturday, members of the Ukrainian diaspora living in Wales and around the world will place lighted candles in their windows in memory of the victims.

Dai Lloyd.

Dai Lloyd AC: Diolch, DirprwyLywydd. As the chair of the cross-party group on vision, I am pleased to note that this week sees the launch of the latest Wales Vision Strategy, and I would urge Members to come along to the event in the Oriel between 12 p.m. and 1.30 p.m. tomorrow lunchtime.
Our level of vision has a huge impact on our lives. There are 107,000 people in Wales with sight loss and this is expected to double over the next 20 years. Blind and partially sighted people each face their own set of challenges every day. Feelings of isolation are unacceptably high, and one in four blind or partially sighted people of working age has a job only.
People with sight loss are more likely to have a fall, are more likely to live in poverty. They are more likely to have depression and have problems with everyday life. We hear of some pretty distressing stories of eyecare patients suffering horrendous delays to their treatment, and delays to follow-up care is a major issue across Wales.
Just recently, in a report by the Wales Audit Office, we heard that 28,000 eye patients were waiting twice as long as they should be for an appointment. This needlessly puts patients at risk of irreversible blindness and needs to be urgently addressed. Now, I'm passionate about making the changes we need, and I would urge members across the Chamber to engage with this agenda so that nobody within their area loses their sight from a treatable eye condition, and that we do all that we can to support people with sight loss.

Thank you very much.

Motion to elect a Member to the Assembly Commission

The next item on the agenda is a motion to elect a Member to the Assembly Commission. Can I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally?Rhun.

NDM6876Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 7.9, appoints Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru) as a member of the Assembly Commission in place of Adam Price (Plaid Cymru).

Motion moved.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Formally.

Thank you. Does any Member wish to object? Therefore, the proposal is—the motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion to elect a Member to a committee

We move on to a motion to elect a Member to a committee. Again, can I ask for a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally?Rhun.

Motion NDM6877Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Orders 17.3 and 17.13(ii), elects Helen Mary Jones (Plaid Cymru) as a Member of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee.

Motion moved.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Formally.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree that motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Further Education Funding

We now move on to item 5 on our agenda, which is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv), on further education funding. I call on Bethan Sayed to move the motion. Bethan.

Motion NDM6862Bethan Sayed,Mohammad Asghar,Helen Mary Jones,Siân Gwenllian,Suzy Davies
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Regrets that funding for further education has been under significant pressure in recent years as a result of funding cuts.
2. Notes that the further education sector has been placed under extra demand, in part due to the Welsh Government’s policies relating to lifelong learning, skills and employability, which have been clarified in the recent employability plan updated by written statement in September 2018.
3. Expresses concern that staff in further education institutions are considering strike action over insufficient pay and concerns over heavy workloads.
4. Proposes that there be no further reduction in the amount of funding received by the further education sector and that its position as key to productivity, skills, training and employability in the Welsh economy be recognised.

Motion moved.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you. I brought this debate today, co-signed by some of my colleagues here—and thank you for doing that—because further education in Wales has been under pressure and has not been given the level of recognition and central position of importance that it deserves. We believe that further and lifelong education is the key to unlock the potential in the Welsh economy. For too long, further education has been looked down on as a lesser option to success than higher education. Government approaches to FE have confirmed this, because the levels of funding and the strategic, joined-up and forward-thinking vision in this sectorhave been lacking—not only recently, but for some time. It's time that that was reversed. We know that, during the last Assembly term and this one, further education has been a target for cuts. I know that the Welsh Government points to the UK Government cuts, which, yes, have been difficult, and that has been a political choice, but a choice has been made here too, a political choice by this Welsh Government. Further education has long been viewed as the less prestigious and more junior partner to higher. It's been, in some ways, an easier target than other sectors for spending constraints. Since 2011-12, there has been a serious real-term reduction in spending, not to mention staggering cuts to part-time courses, mostly taken up by adult students and those in work.

Bethan Sayed AC: Despite these financial constraints, the rising demand for further education and lifelong learning opportunities has been noticeable, as it should be. It's part of the Welsh Government's strategy to upskill our economy, and to do so, they indicate to us, to equip our citizens with the skills they'll need to be successful in a modern economy. Yet, the truth is the funding and vision have not been forthcoming. I mention vision for a very specific reason. It's clear that over recent years there hasn't been the strategic leadership and road map for what the Welsh Government actually wants to achieve. We have soundbites and we have statements, but we are still waiting for something long term and tangible that delivers strategy to embed colleges and further education into the heart of economic planning and policy. At present, this simply is not the case and this is what the sector wants and needs.
Sometimes, the only remedy is more money, but on other occasions and in some sectors what is also needed and often not provided is clarity of purpose, clarity of direction, and leadership. In so many areas of public life, the Welsh Government has singularly failed to do this. I think we can sum up our approach to further education in Wales as being stuck in a catch-22 situation. We need the economy to be better and more productive with higher wages and skills. How do we do that? By focusing on lifelong learning and upskilling and high-quality vocational education. How do we get there? The last part is left open, because, as yet, I don't believe the Welsh Government has decided, nor is it clear in its mind what it wants, despite myriad reviews and evidence on which road map is the way forward.
So, our motion today aims to reflect the importance that we believe this Parliament and the Government should place on further education. Firstly, there has been a substantial cut to the amount further education receives. Ultimately, the Labour Party is in Government here in Wales, this is a devolved field, and it has to take some form of responsibility for those political decisions it has taken. Of course, money is tight, but there are ways of finding extra money. In 2016, we as a party were the only party to have a five-year budget plan independently assessed by Professor Gerry Holtham, who determined that Plaid Cymru's plan to identify over £600 million of savings per year in the Welsh budget was reasonable.We were able to put forward these plans becausewe were ambitious about reforming our Government.
So, there are always choices to be made. We made a choice with the Welsh Government in recent budget agreements to find extra money for FE. The Government requested that the college sector became less financially reliant on the Welsh Government, and that is something that they were able to achieve, going from a financial reliance of around two thirds from the block grant to just over half. There are decisions and actions that can be taken.
The college sector has demonstrated this by becoming more financially efficient, but the flexibility is not being stretched to the limit. The problem is compounded by the complicated funding formula—which now, as Plaid shadow Minister, I'm getting to grips with—and the disparate and myriad pots of money, funding streams and programmes that run through the sector. Some people in the sector have told me that, compared to what is now a far simpler formula for HE, the FE sector is in need of a long-term overhaul.
Whilst Government funding has been cut, the FE sector has been asked to deliver a wider range of services and to be more central in deliveringon upskilling and productivity. We welcome this, FE colleges are well placed to do this. But, the question remains: how much can be feasibly and effectively delivered when factoring in increased demand and fewer resources? Many of the actions from the Welsh Government's employability plan will fall upon the FE sector. As stated in the plan,
'Achieving the objectives within this Plan will require a co-ordinated and focused effort across the employability network. This requires partnership between Welsh Government, UK Government...Local Authorities, Universities, Further Education colleges'
and so on.
'This effort will need to embraceflexibility and innovation whilstretaining a relentless focus on improvement and results.'

Bethan Sayed AC: It's notable that every area of Wales is below the UK average in terms of productivity, but the UK average in itself is below many other advanced economies'. But how will the demand placed upon the sector as a result of the employability plan be met when the resources are simply not there?
I note today that £8 million has been committed by the Welsh Government to ensure some pay parity between FE lecturers and teachers. A strong FE sector needs the best talent available to teach and that must come with a salary that's reflective of their importance. It is interesting, in fact, that the details of this announcement have been made today in time for this debate. Coincidental or not, it is to be welcomed.I think it's also worth pointing out here that the further education joint trade union in Wales has said in the past that any increase has to be above the retail price indexand that the Welsh Government recognises10 years of pay restraint. I hope that's what's being announced today and that that will be able to cover those concerns. But we also need to understand that part of the complaint that led to a vote for strike action was not only about raw numbers but also about a workload that has risen, is rising and set to rise further, with pay and resources not being reflective of that.
Our final point urges what I think all of us in this Chamber, regardless of party, recognise: that FE has notbeen given the prominence in policy making it requires and deserves and that this country needs if we're going to have an economy that succeeds.The frustrating thing for many of us is that I think the Welsh Government knows this. I believe the Minister was right on the money when, as part of her campaign to beLabour leader in Wales, she said that upskilling and the wider skills agenda have to be a focus of the Welsh Government. I don't believe that it is currently, and I don't think that she thinks that it is currently, judging by her comments to the BBC.I think that this statement yesterday regarding further education funding also proves this. Another missed opportunity, another piecemeal bit of reform.
The Welsh Government's own employability plan shows they're aware of the scale of the challenge, because it says, and I quote,
'The Governor of the Bank ofEngland has calculated that morethan 15 million jobs in the UK areat risk as a result of automation,this translates to around 700,000jobs in Wales over the next twodecades. The Centre of Cities thinktank suggests that we will need toreplace 110,000 jobs in Wales by2030 as a result of automation.'
When we look at the reviews that have taken place in recent years into financing, the Hazelkornreview into the long-term funding future, reports on innovation, we see a road map that has been laid out reasonably well for the Welsh Government. What is lacking is the strategic initiative to gather these separate pieces together and make them whole. And we cannot continue to wait any longer. Other countries are recognising the importance of FE and lifelong learning and have structures in place that place the sector at the forefront of their economic strategies. It's noticeable, for example, in the Basque Country; it's one of the highest per-capita regions of Europe, but it got there because of the importance it placed on education. It has focused investment on innovation and research and skills in the round, with skills plans—its fourth skills plan, which ties the education system together as one with planning, guidance and funding running through from pupils aged 14 onwards.
In Wales, as I noted earlier—. And yesterday, we've had announcements around the FE sector being more engaged with regional skills partnerships, which the Welsh Government seemed to acknowledge were not up to the task of playing the central role they need because of the fact that they announced that they needed to have an independent adviser to be appointed to help with the way forward. The contrast is truly striking.The education Secretary has said that she hopes that a major overhaul of further education can take place before the end of this Assembly term. I don't hope that it can be realised, I think it must be realised. This is necessary to plan strategically for the way forward.
Now, as I said, we are in a catch-22 situation in the Welsh economy. At some point, we're going to need to make a decision on how we make real economic progress, because our citizens are not going to put up with another two decades of managed decline. I've said in this Chamber in the past that, at the outset of devolution, our gross domestic product was comparable to that of the Republic of Ireland; now, we're not even in that country's rearview mirror any more.
There is such a thing as damaging through doing nothing. I think what we would like to see is a commitment to bring in the strategic vision the sector wants and needs; to protect funding and prioritise for real-terms increases; to plan education and skills so that they're intertwined with our economic needs; to increase investment in innovation; and to decide where we want to go as a nation—what is our unique selling point, where do we want to invest our skills for the future and what do we want to achieve?How can we make our businesses more commercially viable, create more entrepreneurs and keep the people and their ideas here in Wales, promoting Wales and working in Wales? We are willing to work with the Welsh Government, but they now need to step up to the plate and deliver in this sector.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Further education colleges are an essential part of our education system. They provide a range of lifelong learning opportunities, from vocational and technical education and basic skills to academic and higher level qualifications. Given that developing the skills base of the Welsh workforce is crucial for growing the Welsh economy, you would think that adequately funding further education would be a key priority for the Welsh Government.
But this is not the case. Under the Welsh Government, or the Welsh Labour Government, the further education sector has been chronically underfunded for many years. The budget for further education provision will be reduced from just under £401 million in 2018 to less than £396 million in 2019-20. The audit office states that grant funding in the sector has fallen by 13 per cent in real terms between 2012 and 2017—within five years, Minister, it has reduced by 13 per cent, a staggering figure.
Funding for part-time courses has dropped by 71 per cent over the same period. The effect on part-time student numbers has been dramatic. The number of part-time learners at further education institutions fell from over 85,280 in 2014-15 to just over 65,345 in 2015-16—this is a decline in numbers of nearly a quarter.
In response to the Welsh Government's underfunding, colleges have tried various ways to generate income from other sources, and they have won praise for doing so. The Wales Audit Office review of 2017 praised colleges on how resilient and entrepreneurial they have been in bringing in their own commercial income. They said,
'The sector has shown resilience, maintaining cash reserves and liquidity and generating underlying surpluses...each year.'
I fully support colleges increasing and developing their commercial income, and congratulate them for their success in doing so.However, the fact remains that the Welsh Government grant is the majority source of reliable income for colleges. That source, at present, does not meet the needs of the sector. The Welsh Government's own national strategy states its aim to
'Instilin everyone a passion to learn throughout their lives, inspiring them with the ambition to be the best they possibly can be.'
It is clear that, as far as further education is concerned, it is the Welsh Government itself that lacks ambition. Wales needs a fair further education funding formula, the current budget offers little support for ongoing development in further education. We need a formula that avoids further core funding cuts to colleges and meets the needs of the sector, both now and in the future—one in line with the Welsh Government's own key priorities of jobs, skills, high-level growth and lifelong and adult learning. This, I believe, would go a long way to improving the morale of the staff working in further education institutions.
I was contacted recently by a constituent who works in the sector. He points out that many of his colleagues earn less in real terms than they did in 2008—over 10 years ago, his income was more than what he's earning now.Some have had to take second jobs to support their families, and others have left the sector totally for more lucrative employment in other fields. That is the experience of lecturers, tutors and teachers; they are leaving the sector because of financial reasons. That is totally unacceptable.As a result, my constituent says there was a severe shortage of applicants for positions requiring specialist skills, such as construction and engineering lecturers in Wales.
Deputy Presiding Officer, we can call all support the laudable aims of the Welsh Government with regard to further education, but unless the sector is properly funded, their aims will not be achieved. Unless further education in Wales receives the funding it needs and deserves, it will not be the catalyst for change that we desperately need.
Another area that I would like to mention, Minister—.

No, no. You need to wind up. You're running out of time. Thank you.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Afro-Caribbean, disabled people, LGBT and others also need to be put into further education. And poverty, finally, should not be a barrier to education. Thank you.

Vikki Howells AC: Welsh further education colleges are critical players in the economy of Wales. As ColegauCymru have reminded us, their annual economic impact on the local business community is no less than £4 billion. And in addition to this contribution, they undoubtedly have a crucial strategic role to play in futureproofing the economy in Wales.
In 'Prosperity for All', the Welsh Government sets out how it will build an economy based on strong foundations, focusing on the industries of the future and empowered regions, and how inclusive growth will be used to narrow ingrained inequalities as our wealth and well-being improves. But, as the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning reminded us just yesterday, for the Welsh Government to build an economy that works for everyone, the FE sector must be at the heart of this agenda. And it's easy to see that in terms of a whole range of challenges Wales faces, the FE sector provides the answers and solutions.
For example, around a month ago we debated the economy committee’s report on the future of the Welsh economy. During this inquiry, we took evidence that low-skilled workers, and women in particular, are likely to be at risk from automation and artificial intelligence. In consequence, we recommended that retraining and upskilling should be at the heart of the Government’s lifelong learning policy.
This is an area where the FE sector is well placed to make that central contribution and, moreover, one where it can help shape what the nature of that future should be. As Professor Richard Davies suggested, we need to develop a triangular system of exchange between FE, employers and HE. This could involve the sector having to make some difficult decisions. They may not be popular ones. For example, colleges may have to decide to focus on the ICT skills that we desperately need for the future, and the expansion of areas of teaching like Coleg y Cymoedd's really exciting work around sustainable construction. These could be at the expense of other popular teaching areas, but in choosing which courses to focus upon and prioritise, we really must bear in mind the best interests of the economy and of our country. So, I welcome the Minister’s comments yesterday that her officials have been working to better align provision with regional skills partnerships. This is key to clear employment progression, escaping low-paid work and ensuring that provision meets the needs of local employers.
Adult community learning is another area where the FE sector has an important part to play. Much good work is already taking place, but I would like to see more partnership working with adult community education, more outreach to the most challenging communities, and more liaising at the coal face to ensure the hardest to reach are brought into the learning environment. I know that the Minister spoke about changes in terms of part-time provision, which may be especially important here.
Of course, achieving these goals relies on FE being properly funded. In the new twenty-first century Coleg y Cymoedd campus in Aberdare, there is a very visible symbol of the Welsh Government’s commitment to this. The Minister referred yesterday to additional money being made available to the sector. Of course, none of this can be delivered without a supportive workforce who, in turn, feel supported and valued.From this perspective, I welcome the announcement from the Welsh Government yesterday on pay. It's an important step forward and welcome news that funding will be provided so that FE lecturers will receive a pay award equivalent to school teachers. Importantly, this will also be extended to those crucial supporting staff, like technicians and instructor demonstrators too. This is a crucial intervention, I think, from Welsh Government. Along with my colleagues Mick Antoniw and Hefin David, I have been in discussions with University and College Union members at Colegy Cymoeddand I would hope this action would go some way to showing staff involved just how much they are valued; how respected their work and contribution is.
Of course, we cannot undo the impact on the sector of the austerity obsession of the UK Government. Wales is effectively £4 billion worse off as a result of the UK Government's austerity agenda and there's no doubt that funding for FE has suffered as a result.But we can work together with the sector to achieve our shared goals, and we can only achieve prosperity for all if we continue investing in FE.

Dai Lloyd AC: It’s a pleasure to take part in this very important debate that gives us a platform to be able to discuss the funding of FE here in Wales. I congratulate Bethan on bringing the motion before us and also for all her work in the background to realise what we are seeing in the motion that we see before us.
Before I go on, it’s important to pay tribute, as others have done, to the great work that’s being done in this area in our different FEIs. I was in Gower College last week, in Tycoch in Swansea, and I was there about two months ago as well. I have to say, there is excellent work going on there, particularly in Gower College, because they have a centre there that teaches those with autism. It is a wonderful resource, and an innovative resource that provides enough quiet time for our young people with autism to be able to have an education—sometimes for the first time. Coming into the education system for the first time in an environment that is very attractive to them with the condition that they have in the background and all the problems that they have suffered, and there’s a wonderful resource with wonderful staff who provide the time and due regard for the challenges that our young people do face who have the condition. There are forecasts that this wonderful work that’s going in Gower College is flourishing and the place is expanding the provision for that, and that’s very important.
In terms of skills, we are talking about strengthening and giving a genuine future to our young people, whatever their background and whatever their challenges in terms of health. So, there is wonderful work going on and we need to draw attention to that, despite the emphasis and the background context of funding and the pressure that there is on funding.
As the first part of the motion says, we regret
'that funding for further education has been under significant pressure in recent years as a result of funding cuts.'
Well, that’s a matter of fact, of course. I don’t think anyone would disagree with that, and I think that’s a very sensible proposition to put before us, and I don’t think anyone would argue with it. Of course, in another part of our motion we express concern
'that staff in further education institutions are considering strike action over insufficient pay'—
as they see it—and concerns, as we’ve heard, about heavy workloads.
In that context, as I’ve mentioned in terms of Gower College, that there is great work going on there, there are people working very hard for the future of our young people. At the end of the day, as Bethan mentioned in setting out the situation in such a clear way this afternoon, we are talking about skills and the skills agenda. And ultimately, we’re talking about jobs for our young people. It’s still a significant challenge for our young people to obtain jobs in the first place, to get their foothold in the market and to get their first job. It’s vital that they have all the support necessary to be able to do that.
And, yes, we do need a clear vision on behalf of the Government as Bethan did already note,because also on the horizon, as we know—. We know thatfunding for further education comes from many different streams. Of course, there is a significant challenge in terms of the European funding stream now because, of course, as we all know, I would hope,Brexit is facing us and there are significant challenges in terms of funding from any European funding streams that go to our further education institutions. There is a significant challenge there. We're looking forward, of course, to seeing the commitments made in terms of European funding that goes to the sector, and several other sectors in Wales, which used to come from European funds, to seeing those being realised, and that the same kind of funding will come to our FEIs that they've had previously under European resources in the past.
But, to summarise, I'm very pleased to praise Bethan for her work in bringing this motion before us, and I would encourage all of you to support this motion. Thank you very much.

Dawn Bowden AC: Can I just say: if only life were as simple as this motion seeks to suggest? If only we could pass motions that then delivered money to fund our many public services, but life never is that easy, unfortunately, because, from what I know, and in spite of what the UK Prime Minister states, it is clear that austerity is not over and it's the shadow that continues to hang over us. The pressures of austerity still fall on our public services, and hard choices have to be made.
But contrary to what the mover of the motion asserted, amongst the choices made by this Welsh Government is the drive to improve our economy and to support the skills development to help achieve that aim. And I'm pleased to see that the further education sector is at the heart of that agenda to build a Welsh economy that can work for everyone. I've seen that agenda being put to work in my own constituency of Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, where we have an excellent facility in Merthyr college delivering a range of both academic and vocational opportunities—thousands of people benefiting from the investment in skills programmes, helping to transform life opportunities. It shows the depth and range of the commitment of this Welsh Government to work with the further education sector, assisted in so many ways by the funding from the European Union to ensure that post-16 education is delivering what both learners and employers are looking for.
But, of course, there are still challenges in helping people to make the right choices or choices that don't necessarily fit the stereotype but do draw on the untapped talents that people have. For example, in Merthyr—and I know I've discussed this previously with the Minister—I have to say that it would be good if we could see more women becoming engineers rather than hairdressers or more men becoming carers rather than builders, because we know that making the right choices on skills and learning can open the doors to better employment opportunities and better wages. So, the sector has to strike the right balance between the choice of learners and the needs of local employers, and I therefore welcome the move for the skills partnerships to help decide on both the needs and the opportunities that these provide.
Given the challenge in some of our Valleys communities, I welcome the research that the Minister announced yesterday into a deprivation uplift because I do think that an additional helping hand is sometimes required in order to intervene, break cycles of deprivation and help improve social mobility. Skills and learning are the key to this.
Finally, can I welcome the decision that the Welsh Government has made to provide funding to help with the pay award for teaching and support staff in further education? Hopefully, this will help to avoid the pay dispute from escalating, because I've been concerned with the way in which things have been going around the FE pay negotiations. I've been concerned that FE lecturers would be losing out compared to school sixth-form teachers, and I've been concerned that FE support staff would be losing out compared to both lecturers and teachers in relation to their pay awards. And, as Vikki Howells said, schools and colleges can't operate without support staff and yet it's that group, amongst the lowest paid in the sector, that has been on course for another standstill pay deal and whichhave become a political football in the colleges' funding battle with Welsh Government. In my discussions with their union, Unison, I know that they are now looking for parity of treatment in pay awards between lecturing and support staff, because further education providers depend on their whole staff team to deliver the best outcomes. But I'm also clear that we don't resolve pay disputesby passing motions in this Senedd; that's a matter for the employers and the trade unions. And given yesterday's announcement, I hope that both sides can now come together to resolve the pay dispute, which has clearly gone on for too long. With the Minister's statement yesterday, I believe the Welsh Government has shown its clear commitment to further education and its importance to our economy, and that should be welcomed by everyone.

Caroline Jones AC: I'd like to thank everyone involved in tabling this important debate today. Our further education colleges are an essential link in the education chain and it is vital that we ensure that they're properly funded and adequately resourced. I've had the pleasure to work closely with Gower college in my region, which is a large further education college with over 4,500 full-time and 10,000 part-time learners from across the region. The atmosphere in Gowercollege is second to none, and pupils are encouraged to be the very best they can be. Some pupils have autism, and the lecturers work extremely hard to give pupils the necessary support they need according to their needs. They have achieved amazing things.
The college boasts the largest A-level cohort in Wales, with over 1,500 students studying a range of almost 50 different A-level subjects. Gower college, like all further education colleges, play a vital role in educating our young people and providing lifelong learning opportunities for people of all ages. It is, therefore, concerning that funding cuts are threatening this essential role.
Our FEcolleges are facing increasing demand from Government, and yet have continued to have their budgets slashed. The FE sector provides a service just as valuable as that provided by our schools, yet unlike schools, their budgets aren’t protected, and it’s the staff who have had to bear the brunt of those cuts. College lecturers are left struggling after years of poor pay increases. FElecturers play as valuable a role as teachers yet are not being treated the same. Many lecturers have reported being unable to pay their rent or forced to take on second jobs just to make ends meet. Staff at one college regularly reported skipping meals because they couldn’t afford it.
It is little wonder that FE staff have voted to go on strike. This puts the colleges in an impossible situation. Their funding has been cut drastically in recent years: an overall cut of 6 per cent in 2015-16, which also saw part-time funding cut in half. In the past seven years,FE sector funding has increased by virtually nothing, yet their costs, which include pay awards, have increased by over 12.5 per cent. Colleges' contributions to pensions is set to rise by around 40 per cent next year. It is, therefore, essential that the Welsh Government, at the very least, agrees to ColegauCymru’s demand for an immediate increase of 3.5 per cent for the FE sector.
I welcome the Minister’s statement yesterday, which announced that funding will be made available to fund a pay award commensurate with teachers. However, as always, we wait for the detail. I look forward to seeing college lecturers and staff receiving a 3.5 per cent pay rise, but given the Minister's comments about improved methodology for FE funding, I wait to see the detail as the Minister didn't indicate increased funding.
Colleges such as Gowercollege are invaluable and we cannot afford to lose them. It’s time to reverse the cuts and ensure that colleges and those who staff them are properly funded and fairly treated. I urge Members to support this motion today. Thank you.

Thank you. Can I call the Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning, Eluned Morgan?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, and thank you to the Member who opened the debate and to everyone who has contributed too. May I make it clear that, like so many of you, I am disappointed that our public services, including FE, have been under substantial pressure over the past few years? I have to highlight, of course, that it's the austerity agenda of the UK Government that's entirely responsible for this, and this has preventedus from going further than we would have liked to have gone in order to maintain and support this important sector. And of course I am highly aware of the figures quoted by Mohammad Asghar earlier.
It’s important that we recognise that the FE sector makes an important contribution to the Welsh economy, and the sector is in a far better state than the FE system over the border. As a result of the cuts, we do have to ensure that we make the most of the funding available and that we provide services across Wales in a fair manner. And this is one of the reasons why we have changed the way we will fund and agree to effective planning programmes, so that we can respond to demographic changes and respond to the needs of our local economy. We have allocated an additional £7 million in the draft budget for 2019-20 to support the FE sector in tackling these demographic changes.
Now, today’s statement mentioned the additional demand that will come about as a result of the employability programme. One of the things that became clear in the employability plan was that we need to increase the number of courses that respond to the demand from employers. As a result, I will be suggesting that the colleges prioritise these over other courses that they provide today, in the way that Dawn Bowden highlighted. But we must ensure that these are independent bodies, although they are substantially funded by the Welsh Government.

Eluned Morgan AC: I think it's also worth stressing that it's not just the responsibility of the Welsh Government to upskill and to uptrain the workforce. Employers also need to put their hands in their pockets because it's the employers who will ultimately benefit from improved productivity. We need to see the employers step up in terms of preparing and training and really investing in their own workers. We are looking and trying to learn from the examples of the Basque Country, so we're keeping a close eye on what's happening there and seeing if we can learn from their examples.

Eluned Morgan AC: I don't want to rehearse the points I made yesterday, so I would suggest that people read the statement if you want to know more about how we will fund FE colleges in future.

Eluned Morgan AC: Our FE sector is, I think, one that we should be proud of. The Skills Show in Birmingham, managed by WorldSkills UK, took place last week, and I'm pleased to announce that indicative figures show that team Wales have brought home a total of 51 medals, including 14 gold, 20 silver, 12 bronze and six highly commended. This is an increase on the previous year. I'm also delighted to say that we have four Welsh colleges in the top 10 in the provider league: Coleg Cambria, Grŵp Llandrillo Menai, Coleg Gwent and Gower College Swansea. I think that that quality mark is something thatwe're really looking for in terms of our colleges, really making sure that we are improving our standards year on year. Colleges never cease to be innovative in terms of curriculum design, and we need them always to be looking for new and better ways to deliver provision. It's clear that staff in further education institutions have been under a considerable amount of pressure over the last few years, and I'd like to thank them for their continued support and their passion and dedication to the learners in their care.
We, of course, have been closely monitoring the FE pay negotiations that are currently under way, and whilst these negotiations remain the responsibility of Welsh FE colleges, directly with the unions, through the umbrella body of ColegauCymru, I'm pleased to announce that I and the Cabinet Secretary for Education wrote to the chair of ColegauCymru to announce that we would be supporting a pay increase, not only for the teaching staff, as I mentioned yesterday, but also for the support staff. So, we'll be providing £3.2 million in 2018-19 and £4.8 million in 2019-20, subject, of course, to the passage and approval of the Welsh Government's final budget 2019-20.
The Welsh Government has been able to provide additional help and support for pay in 2018-19 and 2019-20, recognising that these are exceptional circumstances, following the UK Government's decision to ignore its own 1 per cent pay cap for public sector workers and to make up to a 3.5 per cent pay award for teaching staff. We're pleased that that now has been corrected by the Welsh Government.
I want to give my thanks to the entire FE sector for their resilience and flexibility, through what's been an extraordinarily difficult time. The sector plays a vital role in delivering the skills and training that our learners need to address the demands of our economy. Our message is clear: we are committed to providing the very best education system we can for learners of all ages. But as a Government, we'll be voting against this resolution because it fails to note that the funding cuts have been caused by Tory austerity. Secondly, we don't accept that extra pressure has been put on FE colleges as a result of the employability plan. We're suggesting that they reprioritise the provision they're offering to respond to labour market demands. Thirdly, we're pleased that we've been able to support FE staff, both lecturers and support staff, in terms of their pay claims, and we hope that this will help to avoid industrial action.
Finally, whilst we agree we would not want to see any further reduction in the amount of funding received by FE due to its key role in shaping the skills of tomorrow, we can't give this commitment whilst we have a Tory Government that is determined to follow through on its austerity agenda. Diolch.

Thank you. Can I call on Bethan Sayed to reply to the debate? Bethan.

Bethan Sayed AC: Diolch. Thank you, everybody who has taken part. From what I can gather, we've got a consensus in the fact that we all support further education and we all want to see it prioritised. I guess where we differis in our politics and in our analysis as to the prioritisation that it has for the Welsh Government. I did recognisethe investment that has been put into the staffing issues, but, of course, this isn't a new thing. Since I was elected in 2007, there have continuously been pay disputes in relation to FE terms and conditions in terms of workload. So, I genuinely hope—I genuinely hope—that this will be able to stop any future potential action and that we can all work together to ensure that the sector does have the respect that it deserves. Because we know from what Caroline Jones has said, from what Mohammad Asghar has said and from what Dai Lloyd has said—the pressure is being felt on the ground in the everyday realities of the colleges that are in our constituencies. Lecturers and tutors and staff are coming to us and telling us how much they feel stressed by the current situation, how they're leaving the sector and how they feel that they cannot commit to the sector that they love so dearly and are going to jobs anew. We cannot see this as sustainable for the future. We have to ensure thatthose staff stay and remain in the further education sector.
Now, I think I should bring up the point that Dawn Bowden made about the fact that this says'at the heart of the Welsh economy'. If it was at the heart of the Welsh economy, then the Minister just in front of you wouldn't have said that it wasn't at the heart of what the Welsh Government was doing, especially in relation to lifelong learning. If it was at the heart of what the Welsh Government is doing, I wouldn't have needed to have brought this debate to the floor of this Chamber here today. I don't want to have to say that these cuts are happening, but they are, and it is a matter of prioritisation, not only for the UK Government, but for Welsh Government too, as to where they allocate those funds. Since I was elected in 2007, that prioritisationhas not happened. If it's going to turn around now, that's great, but I was on the economic committee this morning and it was said that our productivity levels are still really very low. That is not a sign of putting the further education colleges at the heart of our economyhere in Wales.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you toDaiLloyd, who stated very clearly how important this sector is to us, and he visited Gowercollege in my region, as well as Caroline Jones's region, who has also mentioned the excellent work being done with people with autism in this area. What's important is that we allow these colleges to innovate and to assist different sectors of society to evolve and develop.

Bethan Sayed AC: Oscar, you mentioned diversity and I think that's really important. We have to ensure that we encourage people from all walks of life to be able to upskill and to take part in our further education structures. We were at the Treforest campus last week, where we met with young entrepreneursfrom different walks of life, and, sometimes, if you grow up in some communities of Wales, you might not necessarily think about starting a business, you might not necessarily think about how you could be innovative in that regard. So, I think that was a really inspiring event that we held to try and see how we can keep that expertise here in Wales and how we can develop that for the future.
Vikki Howells, you spoke about what the Welsh Government has done and you spoke about the investment in your area, and I think that's really important. You also mentioned funding, support staff, and the fact that you met with UCU members, and I think that's really important as well, so that we ensure that our engagement with trade unions is alive and well.
And in the tiny time that I have left, I'll mention Caroline Jones. You also mentioned visiting Gower college—Gowercollege has had quite a lot of headlines here today—and the respect that you had for the work that was being committed there.
So, thank you, everybody, for taking part in the debate, and I hope this is the first of many in relation to further education here.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, we defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

6. Debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee Report: Creating the Right Culture

Item 6 on our agenda is a debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee report, 'Creating the Right Culture'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Jayne Bryant.

Motion NDM6870Jayne Bryant
The National Assembly for Wales:
Notes the report of the Standards of Conduct Committee, 'Creating the Right Culture', which waslaidin the Table Office on 13 September 2018.

Motion moved.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. The National Assembly for Wales must lead the way in ensuring it's clear that inappropriate behaviour has no place in our society. The committee’s report marks an important step towards creating the kind of environment in which we all want to work. As a committee, we were keen to highlight that it can sometimes be simple things that break down barriers and bring about change.
I’d like to take this opportunity to thank all the committee members—including Llyr Gruffydd and Paul Davies, who have since left—for their hard work and determination to ensure that every effort was made to come up with recommendations that will bring about real change. We know that this report does not produce all the answers, but it is an important step forward for this institution.I’d also like to thank everyone who gave evidence to the inquiry. Some of this evidence was gathered in a confidential environment, and we're incredibly grateful for the people sharing their experiences and expertise. I’d also like to thank everybody for their patience for the time it has taken. We have acted to make changes, such as incorporating the dignity and respect policy, as soon as we could, but we felt it was incumbent on us to ensure we received the widest possible evidence to inform our report.
Over the last few years there has been extensive coverage about inappropriate behaviour and sexual harassment across society. People from a wide range of sectors have spoken about their experiences of inappropriate behaviour in the workplace. In 2016, the Trades Union Congress and the Everyday Sexism Project conducted a survey that found that 52 per cent of women have experienced sexual harassment at work—and it is very worrying that 79 per cent of these women did not tell their employer. The #MeToo—a step that has allowed people across the globe to speak out and voice their concerns—has demonstrated the need for change is undeniable. Politics is certainly no exception. As elected politicians, we have a responsibility to ensure that we set the highest examples and standards to wider society. It's imperative that every one of us takes responsibility. We must not tolerate inappropriate behaviour within our institution, and it must be called out wherever we see it. This the very least we can do.
The committee made 21 recommendations in the report, which are intended to raise the bar. Listening to those who gave evidence to us left us in no doubt that things must change. We're intending to put into place a number of improvements that will make the complaints process more accessible and tailored to address the needs of people who want to raise concerns. These include the right of appeal and a longer time frame for complaints to be made. We must have a system that enables and empowers people to come forward and raise concerns, instead of unintentionally placing barriers in front of them. The system has to be flexible so that people are assured that their individual concerns will be treated sensitively.
We're also working on proposals to change the code of conduct. The committee believe that more canbe done to make sure that people know what they should expect from us.The code was produced following the expenses scandal at Westminster and explicitly took account of the rules on financial propriety. While the code encapsulates complaints around dignity and respect by requiring Members to act with personal honour and integrity, we feel there should be clarity regarding what type of behaviour breaches the code.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Jayne Bryant AC: The committee is pleased that the Assembly Commission has responded positively to our recommendations and that it shares our vision of an inclusive Assembly, free from harassment. The committee looks forward to the Commission's updates on how these recommendations are progressing. The committee is grateful to the Assembly Commission for the recent updates that highlighted the work of the contact officers, which have now been in place since May. It is evident that individuals are approaching them for support and guidance through the available complaints processes. Members will understand that no details were shared, due to confidentiality, but it was encouraging to hear that this additional service is now being accessed.
The committee were also pleased to learn that, following evidence to our inquiry, additional support has been provided to the independent standards commissioner's office. Assembly Commission staff have been working with the standards commissioner and have now secured an additional secondee to the support the office. This brings a greater gender balance to the office, something that, it is hoped, will encourage people to feel more comfortable talking about any issues of concern. It also means that more efficient and effective fact-finding and investigative work can take place, assisting the commissioner in progressing often complex cases.
The committee recommends to the Commission that consideration be given to how people can report anonymously. We believe that the evidence from the higher education sector shows that, rather than pursue a formal complaint, people sometimes prefer a tool that allows them to register an incident online. This could also aid identification of an individual's pattern of behaviour. However, the committee recognises concerns over anonymous reporting and we're clear that a just process must be maintained during the formal investigation of a complaint. The committee acknowledges that it's necessary to inform the accused and difficult to maintain anonymity in such instances.
The committee recommends that the ministerial code be placed under the investigative remit of the standards commissioner. We felt that those wanting to make a complaint relating to an Assembly Member would benefit from a single point of contact. There would be no need to consider which role was being undertaken at the time the inappropriate action occurred. The First Minister considered and rejected this recommendation, as he feels the independent oversight system he is introducing will add sufficient separation. The committee recognise this is consistent with the approaches of many other Governments, but we did feel this was an opportunity to add clarity and full independence to the system. I note there will be a written statement on this shortly, which the committee will consider with interest.
Cultural change cannot happen overnight—it takes time and commitment, and this report is not a final position. The committee want to make it clear that we need everybody's help to shape an environment based on dignity and respect. In this report we have sought to act where we have seen action was needed. We're open to suggestions on how to improve, and we're determined to get this right. We ask that everybody works with us, because together we must ensure the Assembly as an institution sets the highest example.

Paul Davies AC: Can I put on record my sincere thanks to the Clerks of the Standards of Conduct Committee for their hard work throughout this inquiry, and producing this report? Creating the right culture in any workplace is imperative to a conducive and effective working environment, and I believe that all parties in this Chamber are committed to nurturing that environment. Therefore, I'm pleased to have sat on the Standards of Conduct Committee for the duration of this inquiry and I hope that the publication of this report brings us a step closer to promoting a culture of dignity and respect within the Assembly.
I believe this is a good report, and I'm therefore disappointed that, in responding to this report, the Welsh Government has rejected the recommendation for the First Minister to refer complaints regarding Government Ministers to the office of the standards commissioner so that the commissioner can subsequently report to the relevant body. I think the rejection of this recommendation sadly sends the statement that there's one rule for Assembly Members and one rule for Government Ministers, and, to be perfectly frank, I don't think that this will wash with the people of Wales.The Assembly must do everything that it can to instil public confidence in its procedures, and I believe that, by rejecting this recommendation, the Welsh Government is sending a statement that the First Minister will deal with his own inner circle behind closed doors and away from any independent scrutiny.
The Welsh Government's rationale behind rejecting the recommendationexplains that, where a Minister was clearly acting in a capacity as an Assembly Member when the alleged misconduct occurred, the First Minister would, under those circumstances, consider it appropriate for the standards commissioner to handle the matter.Well, surely, Government Ministers are always Government Ministers. I think the people of Wales will struggle to understand when a Minister has clocked off, so to speak, and is only conducting business in their role as an Assembly Member. Surely, it would be simpler to understand and easier for the public if initial complaints and investigations were dealt with by the independent standards commissioner.The Welsh Government will no doubt argue that this isn't the case for other parliaments, but the Assembly doesn't always have to follow other legislatures. There is nothing to stop us from setting our own agenda on this matter.
Now, one of the focuses of the report is to ensure that individuals feel empowered to come forward with concerns or complaints. I know that, as a committee, we took evidence on this subject. The overwhelming message received was that, at present, the current culture did not adequately support complainants or encourage people to come forward with complaints and concerns. In response to that, I know that the Assembly Commission took immediate steps to update its website to attempt to make it easier for people to navigate and understand the complaints process. But, of course, much more needs to be done.
The confidential hotline, coupled with a series of posters, is now displayed throughout the Assembly estate. Again, that action too is very much welcome. It's also good to see that the existing processes will be routinely monitored via a mystery shopping exercise to ascertain if the existing material on how to make a complaint is effective, easily understood and workable going forward. These steps are important in demonstrating the Assembly's commitment to ensuring that complainants are aware of how they can make a complaint and how the process will be navigated.
Now, as the Chair said, the committee's report also calls for the development of an online reporting tool to allow people to report incidents of inappropriate behaviour—either anonymously or through a named disclosure. I understand the sensitivities around anonymous reporting, but committee members heard that Cardiff University has done some groundbreaking work in this area and so it's good to see the Assembly Commission reflecting on the successes of other organisations' work on this.
I appreciate that contact officers have already been established, as outlined in the dignity and respect policy and associated guidance, and they have a role to report cases to the head of HR anonymously, who then monitors, records and reports patterns of behaviour. However, I understand that the Commission will want to take further advice on this early in the new year before coming to a firmer conclusion on anonymousreporting, once there's been an opportunity for those processes to develop. Perhaps, in responding to the debate, the Chair of the committee will confirm whether the committee will be returning to this specific issue in due course.
Finally, Llywydd, the committee identified social media as an area where there are increasing levels of inappropriatebehaviour, and, in this fast-paced technological age, it's crucial that parliaments are responsive to online threats. We all know that social media has immense benefits—namely sharing information with the public and engaging with constituents—and I'm pleased that the committee is working to develop guidance on the use of social media and that it intends to establish a much more explicit link between what is acceptable on social media and the code of conduct. I look forward to hearing more about those developments as they take place.
In closing, it's crucial that all Members seriously understand the importance of this inquiry and that robust action is taken and routinely reviewed to ensure that the Assembly creates a culture that empowers people to come forward when they witness and/or are subject to inappropriate behaviour. The Assembly as an institution must be forward looking, progressive and willing to address its weaknesses. So, I urge every Member in this Chamber to support all of the committee's recommendations and commit to establishing a complaints process that is fair, transparent and fit for purpose. Diolch.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to participate in this debate as a new member of the committee, and in doing so I'd like to begin by thanking the Chair for her welcome and the other committee members, the committee staff, who've been very supportive in the last couple of weeks in getting me up to speed, and to thank Llyr Gruffydd for having represented Plaid Cymru so ably on the committee in the past.
Llywydd, the issues that this report addresses are not new.We will sometimes hear people say that standards and expectations around conduct have changed. The truth is that this is not the case. People, particularly women, have always known what is and isn't appropriate. We have always known the difference between humorous interchanges and even romantic attachments between consenting equals in the workplace and sexual harassment and sexual abuse constituting an abuse of power. What has, however, begun to change—and I would say, 'About time,too', is the culture that has tolerated and minimised these abuses of power.

Helen Mary Jones AC: It is undoubtedly the case, as this report highlights, that the political nature of our organisation inevitably leads to a heightened power imbalance, and it is all the more important, therefore, that we get this right, creating a culture here in which harassment of any kind is not tolerated, where bystanders routinely call out unacceptable behaviour, and where survivors are empowered to report and are believed. Thereby, we can contribute to wider cultural change.
I warmly welcome this report and the Commission's prompt and positive response to the recommendations.
Now, the Chair and Paul Davies have already referred to the Government's response to recommendation 12, and I feel that I have to address the bulk of my remarks to this. I can't express how disappointed I am by the First Minister's response. I would have expected unanimity across this Chamber that not only must the highest standards of conduct in public life be expected of all of us as Assembly Members, but that those standards must also apply to all Ministers, and not only must those standards apply and be enforced, but they must be seen by the public to be upheld and be enforced.
I am really surprised that the First Minister says in paragraph 5 of his response to recommendation 12, and I quote,
'the Committee’s view that public confidence would be improved if the Standards Commissioner undertook that role'
—the role of investigating complaints under the ministerial code—
'is not one that isshared by the First Minister.'
Now I can, up to a point, accept what the First Minister says about potentially needing to make a difference between the role of an Assembly Member and when a person is acting as a Minister, but I would concur with what Paul Davies says: we may make those differences here in this Chamber and we may understand them, but to the public, I simply cannot understand how they should be expected to perceive the difference. And I find it more difficult to accept and understand the First Minister's view that it would somehow be confusing for the standards commissioner to investigate alleged breaches of the ministerial code. Surely the person we've appointed to this important role must be able to undertake investigations under two different sets of expectations.I can't see why using the standards commissioner as the investigator would in any way muddy the waters with regard to the separation of powers between the Executive and the Assembly, and at any rate, as Paul Davies has said, that is for the public a moot point. The standards of behaviourare the standards of behaviour.
Now, if it were true that there was some muddying of powers between the Executive and Parliament in the suggestion the committee has made, the First Minister must, at the very least, establish a separate, permanent and independent investigative system to which all complaints of possible breaches of the ministerial code should be referred. It cannot be in the interests of transparency or conducive to public confidence for any First Minister to have discretion to determinewhether or not a complaint or concern actually constitutes a possible breach of the code and needs investigating. And I would concur with what Paul Davies has said. I am not suggesting that these decisions are in any way grubby or made behind closed doors, but the risk is that that is how people will perceive them.At any rate, it is not right for the First Minister to have the right to decide whether this constitutes a possible breach or not, and referrals to an independent process at the very least ought to be automatic. And I concur with what the Chair has said, I hope that that will be offered to us in the statement that we are to receive automatically.
And I would also say that what other Parliaments do is not relevant here. We have consistently decided in this Assembly to be better than other Parliaments, whether it's establishing the children's commissioner, for example, long before other parliaments in the UK got their act together to do the same. I believe, as Paul Davies has said, that we should be setting higher standards for ourselves, and those should be higher standards with regard to transparency.
When it comes to the oversight of the ministerial code, I still believe that the committee's original recommendation is a practical and sensible solution. And we will, of course, one way or another, have a new First Minister soon, and I'd like to ask the committee Chairwhether she believes it would be appropriate for us as a committee to approach the new First Minister, whoever she or he may be, and ask them to reconsider this response.
To close, Llywydd, the public have a right to expect that we, in this place, set the tone for the whole of public life in Wales. If we are to do so, we must be as sure as we can possibly be that everyone who works here or who visits here, or who co-operates with us, feels respected and is treated with dignity. This report and the Commission's actions and positive response to this report, are a huge step in that right direction, and I commend this report to the Chamber.

Jane Hutt AC: Can I welcome this debate on the report of the standards committee, 'Creating the Right Culture', and can I thank the Chair and members for undertaking this inquiry and producing this report with recommendations that I support?
It is appropriate to hold this debate during the week of the white ribbon, which we wear in recognition of the ongoing drive to eliminate violence against women. As we heard yesterday, in response to my question to the First Minister, this is a scandal of the twenty-first century modern world. We've a responsibility in government—local and national—and as elected representatives, and as individuals in the public, private and third sectors, to respond to this scandal.
We recently debated'Is Wales Fairer?', the 2018 report of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, where points were made relevant to our debate today, with a statement that said, and the Chair also repeated this:
'#MeToo put the spotlight on women’s and girls’ experience of high levels of violence and discrimination'
which are
'too readily accepted as part of life'.
Angela Burns made a very powerful point yesterday, I believe, on this point.
The Women's Equality Network manifesto reported that 55 per cent of girls aged seven to 21 say that gender stereotypes affect their ability to say what they think, and 52 per cent of women report being harassed in the workplace. I think it's that point about affecting the ability to say what they think that is so important.
The Chair of the standards committee alerts us to the evidence received by the committee and reports in the media that suggest that there have been a number of incidents of sexual harassment at the Assembly, and that these haven't been formally reported. It is to our shame that individuals have not felt they could come forward to make these complaints and expose the fact that our culture is not right here in this Senedd. We must now take responsibility to address this.
The Women's Equality Network manifesto says
'We understand that gender inequality is both a cause and consequence of violence against women and girls. We know that to prevent violence we need to educate, challenge and change our unequal culture and society.'
That means that we must challenge ourselves. Yes, we have had the respect and dignity training—I hope this has permeated throughout this organisation and has been made available to both the Commission and Welsh Government teams, about where people have power over other people. It's where power is exercised and abused that the culture can go so wrong.
There are a number of recommendations with a timeline, which I welcome, but we must be vigilant in meeting those timelines and monitoring their delivery, from the five to be delivered immediately—that does mean immediately—through to December and the spring.
I want to finish by updating Members on the new cross-party group on women's equality, which has met twice since its inauguration in May. At its first meeting, we heard from Professor Laura McAllister on 'A Parliament that Works for Wales', with a positive response from the women who attended, including external organisations such as the Women's Equality Network, Chwarae Teg, Women Connect First, Women's Institute andSoroptimist International, who fully endorsed her recommendations regarding job sharing and 50:50 representation of women for this Senedd and the Welsh Government.
This was followed by a talk by Jess Blair from the Electoral Reform Society on their report, 'New Voices: How Welsh Politics can Begin to Reflect Wales', which also endorsed the need to increase the representation of women in the Assembly. This is particularly relevant today, as we mark 100 years since the passing of the Parliament (Qualification of Women) Act 1918, where women could legally stand for Parliament. This is being celebrated in Westminster, as we can see.
We're now holding a joint cross-party group with the Cross-Party Group on Violence against Women and Children alongside our new group on women's equality, strengthening cross-party support for, and understanding of, these issues we're debating this week. We cannot, in what is largely, sadly, a nearly empty Chamber today, just leave it for this debate—it must permeate everything that we're doing in this Assembly and in Welsh Government.
A few weeks ago, I welcomed a poll that drew attention to public support for using legislation to ensure we get gender parity in this Assembly. Like smoking in public places, I believe the public are ahead of us in many ways, and yet we tend to think that we are in a good place in this Assembly. We are not yet there on these issues. At our joint committee scrutiny of the equality impact assessments last week, we received evidence from the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and they said that the prevalence of societal gender norms in education and employment, and experiences of harassment and violence, is obstructing this progress of women's equality.
We can accept the recommendations today, and clearly, there is much to discuss in terms of the implications of those and from the Welsh Government. We can take them forward, but I think we also need to consider policy and legislation in every aspect of our work here, including legislation to change this Assembly to reflect the Wales we represent. And we should take this on board if we really want to reflect the strength and courage of the suffragettes a century ago, and follow their lead with deeds and not just words. This must include, if necessary, legislation to help to create the right culture in the heart of democracy in Wales.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I want to pick up on the comments made by Helen Mary Jones and others in referring to the power balance, and how there is an imbalance, not only within the culture that exists in this area, but within some of the rules that we have also, and how we need to change some of those rules in order to convey a clear message that we are tackling that imbalance, and that we are introducing a better balance between the complainant and the person who is the subject of a complaint. That’s not to say that we are reducing the defenceof and the fairness to an individual who is complained about, but we also need to empower that individual complainant.
I will give you a few examples in the few minutes' contribution I will make to this debate. If someone were to bring a complaint against me and that the standards commissioner and the standards committee came to a decision that that complaint was valid, then I would have the right of appeal. If the commissioner and the committee came to the conclusion that the complaint was invalid, then the complainant would have no right of appeal. Now, to me, that is an imbalance and it’s unfair. A complaint must be made within 12 months, and we know, of course, that people who have suffered aren’t necessarily ready to bring a complaint in 12 months. It takes far, far longer for them to do that. But after 12 months, that’s it. What can you do? So, we need to change that in order to empower individuals. I would go as far as to say that we don’t need any deadline at all, because we see now how some historic cases from decades ago, perhaps, are emerging. So, I do think that we need to consider that issue too.
There is also a situation in that if I were no longer an Assembly Member, then there would be no means of bringing a complaint against me. But what happens then if I was re-elected after a few years? Well, the timetable has lapsed and you can’t make a complaint. So, there are a number of fundamental issues that we need to address in order to achieve a better balance within that balance of power that I mentioned.
And the only other point that I would want to make is that I too regret and I’m very frustrated and shocked that the First Minister has responded as he has to the suggestion that the standards commissioner should have a role in looking at the ministerial code. I know that that would require legislative change and so on and so forth, I know that it would make it easier for people to understand the system, but most importantly, it would make it easier for those with a complaint to know where to go. Imagine a situation where someone, after great pain, has decided, ‘I will make a complaint.’ They go to the standards commissioner, and then they are given to understand, ‘Well, no, you can’t come to us, you have to go elsewhere with your complaint.’ What kind of message—? And I know that the standards commissioner would do that in a sensitive and responsible manner, but it’s another barrier for an individual to feel that they are able to make a complaint, and I do regret that that First Minister feels—.
And of course, he would still make the final decision too. No-one is suggesting that any power should be removed from the First Minister, and it’s quite right that the First Minister should make that decision, of course. But, what it would meanis that that process of inquiring into a complaint would be taken out of the hands of Government and would be entirely independent—because there are complaints and doubts, and perhaps they are incorrect perceptions that that process isn't entirely independent—but it would give the public more confidence that it was an independent process. And just as the standards commissioner then brings a report to the standards committee in the context of the code of conduct for Members, that report would be submitted to the First Minister in the context of the ministerial code so that the First Minister could consider the evidence and come to his or her own conclusion and come to his or her own decision. So, any suggestion that power is being withdrawn from the First Minister in the context of the ministerial code is a complete misreading of the situation and sends exactly the same incorrect messages that we are trying to tackle and challenge in this debate this afternoon. So, I would echo the demand for any prospective First Minister to be willing to commit to relook at this issue. Because if we are serious about creating the culture that we want to see here, then it's these steps that are the minimum that we should be delivering.

I call on the Leader of the House and Chief Whip, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Can I begin by adding my thanks to the Chair and to the members of the Standards of Conduct Committee for their report and for their very hard work, and indeed for this opportunity to respond to their report? As all Members have pointed out, there is only one recommendation for the Welsh Government, but I welcome the committee's wider intention to foster a culture of dignity and respect within the Assembly through the remainder of its recommendations, and also would very much like to add my voice to those of the various Members in the debate today who've talked about the need for a culture where people can come forward and expect that their complaints will be taken seriously. The suggestions of changing the timescales and the rights of appeal are very interesting ones that the Assembly could, I think, benefit from.
However, turning to the one recommendation for the Government, the ministerial code sets out the First Minister's expectations in respect of ministerial conduct and this is underpinned by the seven principles of public life. Members will of course be aware that it provides guidance on a range of matters including relationships with the civil service and how to deal with Ministers' constituency, party and private interests. It also contains procedural advice on Cabinet and governmental processes and obligations. In particular, the code makes clear that Members are expected to be personally responsible for their conduct, but that the First Minister is the ultimate judge of standards of ministerial behaviour. He also determines any appropriate action in respect of any breach of those standards. In addition, he will call upon an independent adviser or advisers where appropriate to investigate complaints and to provide him with advice on which to base his judgment about any necessary action.

Helen Mary Jones AC: Will you take an intervention, leader of the house?

Julie James AC: Of course.

Helen Mary Jones AC: I think the concern would be that very point, that it is the First Minister making a decision about whether or not independent investigation should be undertaken. I'm concerned that—I'm not suggesting in any way that that's ever been improperly used—but I'm concerned that from a public perception point of view, that is putting a lot of responsibility on the First Minister. As Llyr Gruffydd has said, it is entirely appropriate that she or he should be the person who receives the evidence from an independent investigation and makes the decision because she or he is the person who makes the appointment. But in terms of deciding whether or not that independent investigation needs to take place, I think that, at the very least, that could be seen from the outside as problematic.

Julie James AC: I see the point you're making, but I have to say I don't agree with it. I think there are circumstances in which it clearly isn't appropriate to refer to an independent adviser and there are other circumstances in which it very clearly is appropriate and I think that's a judgment call myself. But I take your point and it's something we can consider as the system runs out.
Sorry—. So, as I said, he would be lookingto see, where appropriate, to call on the independent adviser or advisers. The Government as a whole supports the position that inappropriate behaviour, however and wherever it occurs, will not be tolerated. As I said, we have spoken long and hard in this Chamber on a number of occasions—around the gender review and the equality and human rights report that we received only recently—about being standard bearers for those kinds of conducts, and I certainly would like to add my voice to all of the calls that this place should be standard bearers for the right kinds of conduct.
The First Minister, in the light of that, has carefully considered his response to recommendation 12, which would require the establishment of a protocol to refer complaints about Ministers to the office of the standards commissioner with the commissioner reporting to the relevant body.There is a commentwithin the report that the requirement under the ministerial code that states,
'Ministers must keep separate their roles as Minister and Assembly Member'
is potentially confusing. This is not a view shared by the First Minister. The primary purpose of the clause is to ensure that a Minister avoids the potential for an actual or perceived conflict of interest if they are asked to make a decision within their portfolio that impacts directly on their own constituency. The code is designed to ensure that Ministers do not use Welsh Government facilities and resources for constituency or party political activities outside of the parameters set out elsewhere in the code.
The rationale for the committee's conclusion that there is potential for confusion regarding Assembly Member and ministerial roles is not apparent. To involve the standards commissioner appointed by and accountable to the Assembly to investigate complaints about the behaviour of Ministers when clearly operating as a Minister rather than as an Assembly Member could in itself create the sort of ambiguity of accountability that the committee is actually seeking to avoid.
The report rightly refers to the facility the First Minister has to refer any matter regarding ministerial behaviour to an independent adviser to investigate. Having only been asked to investigate and advise on one case, which was undertaken diligently and comprehensively by James Hamilton with a report culminating in a Plenary debate, it is difficult to understand the report's suggestion that public confidence would be improved if the standards commissioner undertook the role. Independent advice is just that, whether an independent adviser or the standards commissioner performs that role.
The exception to this would be that, if a Minister were clearly acting in their capacity as an Assembly Member when the alleged misconduct occurred, the First Minister would under those circumstances consider it appropriate for the standards commissioner to handle the matter rather than it being dealt with under the ministerial code.
Therefore, for these reasons, the Government is unable to accept the recommendation made by the committee, but I would like to end by asking you all across the Chamber for your support in promoting the culture of dignity and respect throughout this place, which has been so ably and properly referenced and which so many Members have spoken passionately about today. We do absolutely agree that we can all help change behaviours and culture and that we should do so by leading by example. Diolch,Llywydd.

I call on Jayne Bryant to reply to the debate.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm very grateful for the contributions of members past and present of the Standards of Conduct Committee. I'm not quite sure what it says when I'm the only original member left of this committee, but I'm still here for now anyway. Thank you, all.
Paul mentioned in particular the work that has been done, but recognising that we must not take a step back, and I can assure you that we will not be taking any step back. Paul also asked me to confirm whether the committee will be returning to anonymous reporting and the contact officer and work around social media and the guidance, and we will be returning to that and we are looking to do a big piece of work on social media guidance as well, which I think everybody here would agree is crucial. So, there's that point.
I welcome Helen Mary to your position on the Standards of Conduct Committee, and thank you for your contribution as well. Paul and Helen Mary and Llyr mentioned the ministerial code. For us, with recommendation 12, we feel that the system of separate codes existing in Wales is comparable with other provisions in other UK Parliaments, but we did believe as a committee that Wales could take a bold step to improve provision and increase confidence in the system. As a committee, we concluded that bringing this under the responsibility of the standards commissioner—. Although this has been rejected, the committee is open to working with Government to improve transparency. We're obviously interested in the written statement that's to come before us, and I'm sure that the committee will want to pursue this further with the next First Minister.
Jane Hutt, a very powerful contribution from you mentioning the respect and dignity training that has been open to all Members and staff here. I hope that everybody has had the opportunity to take that up. Also, you pointed to the cross-party work that is going on, not just within the committee but in other forums as well, but there is much further to go.
Llyr and many colleagues also mentioned the power imbalance and that came through when we received the evidence as well. I think we have a real clear aim about empowering people, and we need to make sure that we do listen to everybody who is coming forward and make sure that we are as fair and transparent as possible.
Llyr also mentioned the right to appeal, which is our last recommendation, recommendation 21. On that, the committee will bring forward proposals for amending the appeal provision in a procedure for dealing with complaints by the end of this year. So, we will be doing some work on that.
I'd like to thank the leader of the house for her comments and the commitment to workon creating the right environment, although I'm sure you've heard Members' concerns on the rejection of recommendation 12.
Everybody must have an understanding of what constitutes inappropriate behaviour so they'll know if they experience it themselves or see it happening to somebody else. We want to encourage a wide and diverse range of people into politics, and to do this we need a culture that is inclusive and enabling. Evidence received by the committee suggests that there have been a number of incidents of sexual harassment at the Assembly and these have not been formally reported, and the committee is of the view that it's completely unacceptable that people have felt unable to report their experiences.
And, just finally, I'd like to say that the cultural change required is not achievable overnight; it's going to take a long-term commitment and dedication. This report is the very start of that important conversation with the committee, and we welcome feedback on our recommendations. We encourage people to make suggestions regarding further steps that might be taken in future, and we will continue to learn and listen to others on this. We all have a responsibility to ensure that we set the very highest standards, and we're determined to create the right environment.

The proposal is to note the committee report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Debate on Petition P-05-828 Presumption in Favour of Rural Schools

That brings us to our next item, which is a debate on the petition 'Presumption in Favour of Rural Schools'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. David Rowlands.

Motion NDM6871David J. Rowlands
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
Notes the petition, ‘P-05-828 Presumption in favour of rural schools’, which received 5,125 signatures.

Motion moved.

David J Rowlands AC: Diolch, Llywydd. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, may I thank Members for the opportunity to hold this debate today? This petition, 'Presumption in Favour of Rural Schools', concerns the Welsh Government's school organisation code and the protection afforded to schools in rural areas. As Members will know, recent revisions made to the code attempt to provide stronger safeguards and protection for rural schools, and I congratulate the Government for those revisions, which specifically include a presumption against the closure of rural schools.
The newly revised code came into force on 1 November. This means that all new proposals for school closures ororganisation will be governed by a new process. However, it doesn't apply to existing proposals, and this petition calls on the Welsh Government to do all that it can to ensure that all local authorities are following the spirit of the revised code, even where proposals are being determined under the previous version. Underlying the petition is a concern that some local authorities have moved to close some rural schools in advance of the new code coming into force. Specifically, the petitioners are concerned about the planned closure of Ysgol GymunedBodffordd, a primary school near Llangefni, Anglesey.
The petition received 5,125 signatures, and I want to start this debate by acknowledging the support enjoyed by the petition and the commitment of those who have campaigned to gather the signatures. As I have outlined, the future of a specific school, Ysgol GymunedBodffordd, is central to this petition and to the issue of the future for rural schools. The Petitions Committee has heard that Ysgol GymunedBodffordd currently has around 85 pupils. Like many rural schools, it plays a major role in the local community, both as a place of education and as a well-used communityresource. However, unlike some, we understand that it has a very low level of surplus places, only around 1.6 per cent. Isle ofAnglesey County Council proposes to closeYsgolGymunedBodfforddand another primary school inLlangefni,Ysgol Corn Hir. In their place, the council intends to build a new, larger school with a capacity of 360 children.
A consultation took place earlier this year, and at the end of September, Anglesey council published a statutory notice confirming its intention to proceed with the closure from September 2020. Because the process was initiated prior to the new code coming into effect, it has been determined in accordance with the first edition of the school organisation code.Under the new code, YsgolGymunedBodffordd is listed as a rural school, therefore, whilst it is not possible to know whether the new code would have led to a different outcome, it is reasonable to suggest that Anglesey council would have had to consider the proposal in a different way if the process had been initiated later. The petitioners are seeking to make the case that councils should be obliged, or expected, to act in accordance with the spirit of the new code, because the Welsh Government's desire to strengthen the protection offered to rural schools has been known for some time. I will focus on this broader issue for the remainder of my contribution.
A review of the policy regarding surplus school places, with an emphasis on rural schools, was part of the agreement that resulted in Kirsty Williams being appointed Cabinet Secretary for Education in June 2016. A consultation on revisions to the school organisation code was issued for public consultation in June 2017. This included a new presumption against the closure of rural schools. Following this, the new code finally came into force on1 November this year. The presumption against closure means, in reality, that there is now a more detailed set of procedures and requirements where ruralschools are proposed for closure. As the Cabinet Secretary herself previously noted, this does not mean that rural schools will never close, however it does mean that the case for closure must be strong and not taken until all viable options to closure have been conscientiously considered.
The petitioners contend that thishas not happened in the case of YsgolGymunedBodffordd. They argue that two years after the proposal to close the school was first raised, a number of questions remain unanswered. These include the future of the nursery and other groups that use the school and what consideration the council has given to other options such as a federation with other schools or extending the existing school.
At the heart of the debate is the issue of whether a local authority should proceed to close a rural school without giving full consideration to the revised code that requires a stronger case to overcome the presumption against closure. I am aware that Ysgol GymunedBodffordd is not the only school in this situation. The Cabinet Secretary has said on several occasions that she expects local authorities to factor in the Welsh Government's new policy towards rural schools when making decisions about school reorganisation. However, she has also made clear that the new code is not retrospective and that there is no statutory requirement to comply with its provisions before it came into force.
So, to summarise, then, there are several questions at the heart of this petition and this afternoon's debate. Firstly, the extent to which local authorities or others proposing a school closure should consider the requirements of the new code, even where there is no statutory requirement for them to do so. Secondly, how the Welsh Government can give practical effect to its expectation that local authorities should take the spirit of the new code into account. And thirdly, what other action the Government could, or should, take to protect rural schools such as Ysgol GymunedBodffordd.
The Petitions Committee has, as yet, not reached any conclusions on this matter, and as a result I will leave it to others to expand upon the principles and arguments behind this issue. It only remains for me to say that the Petitions Committee will return to consider the petition again at a future meeting in the light of the contributions during this afternoon's debate. Diolch yn fawr.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I congratulate the Petitions Committee and in particular the way the Chair introduced the debate and outlined the considerations and arguments that have been put before the Petitions Committee. As someone who was on the original Petitions Committee back in the 2007 to 2011 Assembly, I well remember an exercise similar to this being undertaken in that particular Assembly, when we went down to west Wales looking at the challenges that local authorities face and schools face and communities face in maintaining their local education network. Because it's really important to reflect that a rural school is the heart of that community. It creates an energy within that community, it creates an activity that supports other serviceswithin the community and, above all, it binds that community together.

Andrew RT Davies AC: I do welcome the Cabinet Secretary's intervention with the new code that has come into force this month, I believe I'm correct in saying, albeit it was laid before the Assembly back in the summer for consideration.I would like to reflect on an issue that is in my own particular area, and I appreciate that the Cabinet Secretary will not be able to speak directly to the Llancarfanschool closure, which she has heard me speak on many times in this Chamber, but she did indicate that the code, even though it wasn't in force when various notices were issued on that particularschool closure, should carry some weight, given thatit was in the public domain and it was understood by the local authority to be part of the Government's thinking in maintaining the rich fabric of education provision in rural areas. Indeed, under the code, Llancarfanis the only rural school that is mentioned in the list of schools that the Government saw fit to include in the code.
The proposal to close Llancarfanschool was a proposal that was first brought forward in 2012-13 by the then Labour-controlled council, and many residents in the area do feel that it's almost officer unfinished business, if that makes sense, what I've just said, in thatthe current councillors have picked up the mantle in trying to force through what was an ill-thought-out proposal back in 2012, and placed a great deal of store on the guidance that the Cabinet Secretary was bringing forward to protect their school. BecauseLlancarfanschool is a school that is very vibrant. Whilst it might not have a full roll, it has a roll of in excess of 100 pupils, it has a school estate that, with modest expenditure, could be brought up to speed, and every argument that has been deployed by the current council to close—and, interestingly, they will not use the word 'close'; they use the word 'relocation'. I fail to see how you can say that you're maintaining the school in a location when the proposed new site is some 3 miles away. That, surely, is a loss to the site, and in anyone's understanding of the word 'closure', that defines closure.
This petition that has come, admittedly from the other side of Wales, from the top end of Wales in Anglesey, does pertain to many of the aspects that the community in Llancarfanhave found themselves fighting against. And that very community, at every turn, has put forward a coherent plan to maintain the school within the village of Llancarfan, and supporting the surrounding villages. Every time an argument is put forward to support and maintain the school, an alternative argument is presented by the council. The first argument was that the only way twenty-first century schools money could be brought forward was by a relocation and creation of a new school. Thanks to the clarification that the Cabinet Secretary has given, that is not the case. Twenty-first century schools money can be used to upgrade current facilities. We are then told that there is a falling roll at Llancarfanand it would not sustain the current teacher-pupil ratio. Well, we know that there is a demand for education in thatarea, and thatdemand has been sustained for many years and would be sustained going into the future for many years as well. So, that argument doesn't stack up. And now we are hearing that because necessary orders have been placed, it is a foregone conclusion that the school will ultimately close in a few years' time, when the new site is presented to the community in Rhoose. I would say that that, actually, is a cocking-a-snook act—obviously, the sentiment that the Welsh Government put have forward via their new code.
I do believe, and I would hope, that the Cabinet Secretary will use her good office to try and influence this decision, because as we have heard, and as I've outlined in my comments today, it is a fact that twenty-first century money an be used to upgrade that school, it is a fact that the roll is strong enough to maintain the education provision in that school, it is a fact that the school has had a good Estyn report, and it is a fact that we identify that it is important thata rural school is maintained and isn't considered for closure as just a matter of course. It should be only considered for closure after every conceivable option has been considered and explored, and I do not believe that that is the case here. I therefore welcome the report that the Petitions Committee has brought forward, and unearthed various arguments, albeit in another part of Wales, but which is pertinent to the rest of Wales, and in my electoral area, in particular around Llancarfanschool. I do thank other Members in the Chamber who have helped in the campaign and certainly will continue to support the community of Llancarfan, because this isn't a done deal, and we will continue to fight to maintain the school in the village of Llancarfan.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I wear several hats today. I live in a rural village where the school has been under threat recently. I am a former member of the Petitions Committee. And I am the Assembly Member of those who arranged this petition, parents and supporters of Ysgol Gymuned Bodffordd, who are sincerely battling very hard to save their school.
There were 31 children in my first primary school. In the second, there were more than 200. They were excellent schools, but I have to say that, because my father was the head. My own children went to an urban primary school with 350 children first of all, then to a school with a little under 100 children on Anglesey. So, four very different schools, but a positive educational experience in all four. So, as a background to this debate, may I say that I don’t accept the arguments that a school has to be large in order to provide an effective primary school experience, and neither do I buy into the argument that children are necessarily happier in a small rural school? I'm convinced that quality primary education that is caring can be provided whatever the scale of the school.
And yet, we have seen a clear shift across Wales towards closing small rural schools. The problem we have, I’m afraid, is a financial problem and a staffing problem. Many of our relatively small schools in rural areas are old or are getting older and, generally, are expensive to maintain. They’re expensive to staff too, if the staff-pupil ratio is small. Also on the staffing side, leadership can be a problem. Far too often, it is very difficult to appoint a headteacher in a small rural school. In addition to that is the broader narrative that a larger school is, generally speaking, better, and it’s a combination of these things, I think, that makes councils feel that they don’t have much option but to rationalise or to reorganise or to modernise their school networks. And let’s be honest here: the cost is a very prominent factor in all things in these days of austerity. But what about the value of the schools as a social resource? And I’m not talking necessarily about a school hall being used every evening, although that does happen in a number of cases, but I'm talking about the school as the glue that binds the community together, and that brings us to this petition.
The petitioners in Ynys Môn have been given the hope that there may be a means of safeguarding that community glue. That hope came in the form of the Welsh Government’s revised school organisation code, which came into force on the first of this month, which introduced a presumption in favour of rural schools. I agree with the content; I have no problem with what it says, which is that a local authority needs to prove that they have considered all other options before closure, that they have gone through various processes, and that they have gone through detailed processes before making decisions to close. What we have here is guidance for local authorities to follow in drawing up proposals and in making decisions to close a school. To quote once again:
'A presumption against closure does not mean rural schools will never close.'
So, let’s be clear: there are no specific measures in place to keep rural schools open in statute, and, surely, specific measures, including resources, are what is required.
Again, I emphasise that I agree with what the code has to say. It insists on the consideration of federalisation, and I believe that everything should be done to keep a school in its community. Personally, I favour multisite area schools, where a number of schools come together under one head and one governing body. But I know full well that this doesn’t provide the kind of financial savings that councils have to make these days because of austerity. So, the Welsh Government needs to recognise the higher costs of providing education in rural areas if they are to do that and provide excellence, and provide the necessary support to local authorities serving rural areas to provide an education system that is appropriate to their communities.
There are rural school grants available, but they’re not sufficient: £2.5 million per annum. According to the Government, there are more than 300 schools that have benefited in the first year—that's around £8,000 per school. And whilst I welcome any additional funding, that isn't the kind of funding that can keep a school open. The Government states—and has stated in response to questions from me—that local authorities can bid for funding from the twenty-first century schools programme, but the truth is that it's easier to direct those funds to building new, larger schools. But if you don't have the money, Welsh Government, be honest, and don't pass the buck entirely to local government. We need collaboration here.
So, to summarise, closing some schools is inevitable, I think. When a school is down to a few dozen children, I think we've gone beyond what is sustainable. But if the Government is serious that there is an inherent value to a small, rural school, well, help our local authorities. Otherwise Ynys Môn, or any other local authority, has no choice but to continue to seek ways of providing excellent education in larger, cheaper schools rather than to provide excellent education in smaller, rural schools, as I know is perfectly possible.

Jane Hutt AC: I'm grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate, and I'm very glad to follow Andrew R.T. Davies in raising yet again our joint opposition across this Chamber to the Vale of Glamorgan Council's latest proposal—of course, it is now a Conservative-controlled council—to close a successful school in my constituency and Andrew's region, Llancarfan Primary School. I think it is relevant to raise some of the points that we have been raising over the last few months. The fact that Llancarfan has been designated as the only rural school in the Vale of Glamorgan was welcomed, and we'd hoped that this would afford it some level of protection in consideration of the outcome of the second public consultation on the future of the school. But the Vale of Glamorgan Council appeared to ignore the consultation responses and, as I said this afternoon in questions to the Cabinet Secretary, hasn’t considered other options such as federation, and is pressing ahead with its plans.
We have grave concerns about the proposal to close Llancarfan school, a successful rural school in the Vale of Glamorgan. The closure plans are widely opposed and contested with rigorous expert independent evidence, and I've said that the concept of this being a transfer, as Andrew has said, of the school rather than a closure is both flawed and concerning, and does discredit the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013. It's also a unique interpretation of the school organisation code, and it could indeed set a precedent for local authorities to use school transfers as a means of avoiding additional safeguards for rural schools in the revised code. So, may we ask for these issues that I've outlined to be considered by the Welsh Government?
I do find it disappointing that there doesn't seem to have been any attempt by the Vale council to consider alternatives to sustain a successful rural school in Llancarfan and enhance provision at Rhws Primary School, which could access the twenty-first century schools programme.

Siân Gwenllian AC: The petition, of course, relates to a specific issue and to which version of the code should be followed in a particular case on Ynys Môn—the old version or the new edition; 2013 rather than 2018. Now, I have no specific comments to make on that particular case or which version should be used. That's an issue of great detail that needs consideration. But I would like to take this opportunity to make a few general comments on this whole issue of rural education in small schools.
The new code does note that a series of procedures and more detailed requirements must be gone through in making a decision to close a rural school. But, as the Cabinet Secretary herself has said, and as others have highlighted already, the presumption against the closure of rural schools doesn't mean that they would never close. I am entirely convinced that local authorities do give full consideration to the impact of any closure, code or not, and that federation and multi-site schools are very real options,and we need to take that into account.
Nobody, of course, wants to see a small school close. There are family links, there are emotional connections, schools can be the heart of a community—that's not always the case, but certainly in some communities they are crucially important to those communities. There are numerous examples of schools that are a very long way away from their neighbouring schools; it could be as much as 20 miles. Clearly, such schools do need to be considered in a very specific way, because that travelling distance is going to have a huge impact on the pupil and the education of that pupil.
But, as Rhunhas already mentioned,rural education needs resources, and its those resources that are so scarce at the moment. Therefore, I have every sympathy with local authorities who are trying to strike that balance between maintaining buildings that are now too large for the pupil needs and high staff costs, and balancing that on the one hand with the need to provide the best possible opportunity to all pupils within the area of that authority to reach their potential.
There is one pot of funding available, and very often councillors need to take very difficult and unpopular decisions if they want to ensure fairness for all children. So, for the code to be meaningful, it does have to be supported by resources, and they have to be sufficient resources. Unfortunately, we know how difficult that is in these days of austerity.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Kirsty Williams.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I've listened carefully to the debate that's taken place this afternoon and I'm grateful to the Members for the time that they've taken to participate and for the clear passion that many of them have expressed for rural schools in the areas that they represent.
I am clear that there can be real benefits—academic, cultural and social—to pupils and communities through the delivery of high-quality education in small and rural schools. I know, and parents across rural communities know, that small and rural schools play an important role in raising standards and extending opportunities for all. I also know that maintaining the provision of an accessible school in some small rural communities can make a significant contribution to the long-term sustainability of the local community, which is why one of the very first commitments I made as education Secretary was to strengthen the schoolorganisation code in respect of a presumption against the closure of rural schools.
I would have to say, gently, to Rhun ap Iorwerth that was a manifesto commitment of my party, which I have implemented, and I note that there was no mention of rural schools in the last two Plaid Cymru manifestos that were published. I also am sad to note that Angleseycouncil, in their response to the consultation on the new code, objected to the principle of a presumption against closure.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Will you take an intervention?

Kirsty Williams AC: Of course.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: But you will add to that that, in a subsequent submission to Welsh Government,Anglesey council made it clear that they supported the code.

Kirsty Williams AC: Clearly, your lobbying must have paid off and they didn't want to—. They wanted to spare your blushes, Rhun.
Following a 14-week public consultation, the revised code, which now includes a presumption against the closure of ruralschools, and the first ever designation of rural schools for this purpose, came into force, as the Chair said, on 1 November. A presumption against the closure of rural schools does not mean—and I have been very clear about this—that rural schools will never close. However, it does mean that the case for closure must be strong and not taken until all viable alternatives to closure have been conscientiously considered, and that includes the principle of federation.I believe that consideration of alternatives should be a two-stage process, with the proposer doing this before they even decide to proceed to consultation, with an opportunity for anyone else with an interest to put forward suggestions for alternatives as part of the consultation, which the proposer must consider, and the new code provides for this.
Of course, it is important for Members to remember thatit is not Welsh Government but it is local authorities that are responsible for planning school places and for ensuring that there are sufficient schools providing primary and secondary education in their area. Schools are regarded as sufficient if they are sufficient in number, character and equipment to provide for all pupils the opportunity of an appropriate education.In order to fulfil these duties, local authorities must ensure that they plan thoroughly for schools serving their area. This is linked directly to a local authority's duty to strive to raise education standards.
Proposers will have long deliberated over whether to proceed to consultation on the closure of a school. However, it is important that the proposer is open to new ideas and suggestions and proposals emerging from the consultations, and that the final decision that the proposer may make is not a foregone conclusion. In undertaking their responsibilities in respect of school reorganisation, local authorities and other relevant bodies must comply with the statutory provisions of the code and must have regard to the statutory guidance. The code recognisesthat education must be the primary consideration.The presumption against the closure of rural schools aims to balance local authorities' responsibilities with the wishes and concerns of local communities. It aims to ensure that rural schools are given a fair hearing and that closure is not seen as an only option or the foregone conclusion.
As I stated previously, the revised code came into force on 1 November and applied immediately. From that date, local authorities considering bringing forward proposals to close a school will be required to check whether the school is on the list and the further procedures and the requirements set out in the code will then apply. However, the new provisions do not apply to proposals already in train, where the consultation was published prior to the code coming into force. And this is necessary to ensure the proposers are able to comply with the code in force, including in respect of their consultation. And, although the presumption against the closure of rural schools does not apply to these proposals, local authorities and other proposers must nevertheless ensure that they comply with the first edition of the code. This includes ensuring that the proposal to close any school is robust and in the best interests of educational provision in that area, and that the impact of the closure of a school on the community has been assessed through the production of a community impact assessment.
The code sets a high standard for consultation, providing for all those with an interest to make their views known and have those views taken into account. Anyone with an interest can also make their views known through any objection period that may follow.
With regard to the petition, Members will appreciate that, given the potential for proposals to be referred to Welsh Ministers for determination—and I have had to make such determinations—I am unable to comment on the merits or otherwise of any proposal that may subsequently be referred to me for determination.

Darren Millar AC: Will you take an intervention?

Kirsty Williams AC: Of course.

Darren Millar AC: Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for taking the intervention and thank you for the determination that you made in respect of Ysgol Llanbedr in my own constituency, a school that the local authority had planned to close, but I was very grateful for your determination to keep that particular school open? I think the one concern about the determination process, if I may, is the length of time that it sometimes takes for Welsh Ministers to actually consider the evidence that is before them. I wonder if you could comment on how that can be reduced in order to take away the uncertainty that that can cause for small schools when such determinations are being considered.

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Darren, for your thanks with regard to the determination. I would be the first person to hold my hands up here and agree with you that that determination took too long and we will need to do better in ensuring that such determinations that may come to Ministers are taken in a more timely fashion, and I hope that I and my officials will be able to use that experience to ensure that the procedures are quicker next time such a proposal comes. I hope the community is pleased, and I wish that school—I wish that school well.
Of course, the presumption against the closure of rural schools is just one of the actions, Presiding Officer, that we are taking to support rural education. We've also introduced a new annual small and rural schools grant of £2.5 million per year to encourage innovation and support greater school-to-school working and to increase the community use of buildings.Around 400 schools right across Wales are already benefiting from that grant. This, alongside our new E-sgol initiatives, which support schools in the digital age to introduce innovative teaching techniques, are key parts of our rural education action plan, which I launched last month.I'm confident that this plan, which brings together all of the Government's actions for rural schools in one coherent plan, will deliver for our young people to ensure everyone, no matter their background or where they live, has the opportunity to enjoy an excellent education.

I call on David Rowlandsto reply to the debate.

David J Rowlands AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Can I thank the Members for their contributions to the debate, and thank the petitioner again for bringing the petition forward?
I will make a short synopsis of some of the comments that were made. Andrew R.T. Davies made the point of a rural school often being at the heart of a community, citing Llancarfanschool in his constituency as an example of closing a school that has a strong argument to be kept open.
Rhunap Iorwerth argued that a school does not have to be large in order to give a good educational experience, and also spoke of difficulty in obtaining teachers for small rural schools as an acknowledgement of, often, how it is difficult for local authorities to keep schools open. He also reiterated Andrew's point about rural schools being part of the community. He also, of course, asked for more financial support for local authorities, which comes outside the bidding process.
Jane Huttquestioned why the existing procedures could still result in closing successful rural schools, and also questioned why, often, alternatives were not always fully explored.
Siân Gwenllian first of all spoke, of course, of YsgolGymunedBodffordd and then acknowledged that there are cases where schools have to close, but also mentioned the distances that pupils may have to travel—sometimes up to 20 miles—and that that should be taken into account when decisions are made about closing rural schools.
Turning to the Cabinet Secretary's replies, she acknowledged the community resource that rural schools often represent. The Cabinet Secretary asserted that this was one of the reasons for strengthening the code. She also made the point that there now has to be a full consultation by the authorities before they actually close a school, and they have a duty to abide by the statutory requirements of the code. I'm not sure that she's actually answered the petition in saying that, because the petition calls for there to be some pressure on authorities to look at the spirit of the code in the light that the code has been strengthened.
The Petitions Committee will return to consider the petition again at a future meeting. In so doing, we will seek to consider the petitioner's reaction to the points raised today, and, of course, the response from the Cabinet Secretary for Education. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, I am grateful to all Members for their contributions and for the opportunity to debate this matter today. Diolch.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is, therefore, agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move immediately to voting time. The first vote is on the Member debate on further education funding. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Bethan Sayed. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour22, three abstentions, 21 against, and, therefore, the motion is agreed.

NDM6862 - Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) - Further Education Funding: For: 22, Against: 21, Abstain: 3
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

9. Short Debate: Transport for Wales: The vehicle to transform rail services in Islwyn

This brings us to the short debate. I call on Rhianon Passmore to introduce the motion in her name on Transport for Wales. Rhianon Passmore.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

If you're leaving the Chamber, can you do so quickly and quietly, please? Rhianon.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Thank you.
It is a fact that the Wales railway network has been historically starved of investment. Since 2011, only around 1 per cent of the rail enhancement expenditure across England and Wales has been made in the Wales route areas. The Welsh Government has led the way in strongly demanding that Wales's railways are properly funded. Earlier this week, in direct response to Welsh Government's continued and vocal representations, Network Rail has unveiled a £2 billion cash pot of public money for the historically underfunded Wales and borders routes from 2019-24. This is the first time the funding plan for the route, which covers Wales and nearby connections in England, such as Shrewsbury, has been developed under Network Rail's regionally devolved system. The funding plan represents a 28 per cent increase on the figure for the last five-year funding period, and will support the Transport for Wales investment of £5 billion over 15 years.
It is a fact that the Wales and borders route has been starved of cash for many years, despite increasing demand and passenger numbers growing by around 50 per cent over the last decade. So, I would like to acknowledge the commitment of the Cabinet Secretary for transport and infrastructure in his determined and strategic efforts to ensure that my constituents in Islwyn and throughout Wales have a railway that is truly fit for purpose in the twenty-first century. Under this Welsh Government, this will happen.
Transport for Wales will rank as a turning point in the history of Welsh devolution and in the history of railways in Wales. So, let's be frank: the railway network and infrastructure in Wales was not built with the principal aim of transporting people around. It was built during the great industrial revolution in the age of Queen Victoria in order to serve Wales's world-leading revolutionary industries of coal, steel and iron, The services and, later, passenger routes that then developed were then decimated by the Beeching cuts of the 1960s.
So, with devolution established, a Welsh Labour Government was determined to facilitate effective and sustainable travel for the future, and the creation of Transport for Wales. It is correct also to say that the potential for the communities of Islwyn to be transformed is, indeed, there for us to grasp. And as the Assembly Member for Islwyn, my inbox, postbag and messages from constituents have persistently and rightly lamented the poor performance and lack of comfort of travel under the previous franchise operator, Arriva Trains Wales. I have represented these and other issues to the Cabinet Secretary on many occasions within this Chamber. So, the criticisms from the Welsh Conservative leader in the Chamber yesterday about the first month—the first four weeks—of Transport for Wales's operations, I will treat with the cynicism that they deserve, and their sheer political expediency. 
It is correct to say that Transport for Wales has a truly transformative agenda. The 15-year contract period will see investment of nearly £5 billion, and this includes plans to spend £194 million on station improvements, including the building of five new stations, and the deep cleaning of stations. This is transformational for Wales. Although the creation of new railway stations is still not a devolved matter, I do wonder what the Cabinet Secretary's thoughts are on the Welsh Government's securing of these powers, which are instrumental in expanding the footprint of the Welsh rail network.
The Cabinet Secretary is aware, I believe, of the strong argument for a station to be once again opened at Crumlin. For communities such as Crumlin, the opening of a new station and integrated public transport services will offer true economic opportunities and enhance the heritage and tourism potential of the listed Navigation colliery, as well as combating the strategic fight against vehicle pollution. So, to quote you, Cabinet Secretary,
'Our plans go beyond a traditional transport project – they have to become the spark for wider economic renewal. They have to help individuals, businesses and communities who need a reliable, integrated transport system to help them find a new job, support their business to expand, and bring new investment to their town.'
The communities of Islwyn are already familiar with the benefits that Welsh Government investment can bring to our railways. A decade on since the reopening of the Ebbw Vale line, a report published earlier this year found that it has been highly successful in increasing access to the jobs market and reducing greenhouse gases. The reopening of this line was a true boost, not only to the economy of Ebbw Vale, but also to areas such as Newbridge, Crosskeys, Risca and Pontymister in my constituency. The reopening of this line has provided much better connectivity with Cardiff, whether for work or leisure, to many of my constituents. Though this is, of course, something I welcome, the Cabinet Secretary will also be well aware that, since my election, I have strongly campaigned for improved rail links from Islwyninto Newport.
Of the many excellent proposals contained within this new franchise, the announcement of an hourly service between EbbwVale and NewportI hugely welcome. I know that this news will be very welcome also to the great number of my constituents who commute into Newport regularly. This will, I know, prove a significant boost to the economy in Gwent, whether they are commuting for work or pleasure.I know that this is something a number of my colleagues have also campaigned on and will also welcome, as I'm sure will the South Wales Argus, which has since 2002 campaigned also for the line to be reopened to Newport.
I'm also delighted to hear that over 50 per cent of the much needed new rolling sock will be produced here in Wales in Newport. This £800 million investment will dramatically improve the quality of our trains and will also improve resilience during adverse weather conditions, as we've experienced this autumn. The announcement of 300 jobs at this site will be very welcome, along with 600 new jobs at Transport for Wales, as well as 450 apprenticeships. So, I would like to therefore ask what the Cabinet Secretary is doing to ensure that these opportunities are available to individuals across Wales, including in areas such as Islwyn. Thank you.

Thank you very much. I call the Cabinet Secretary for economy and transport to reply to that debate—Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to start by thanking Rhianon Passmore for raising this important debate today, and I'd like to thank her for her comments and also for recognising the huge change that is to come to rail services across the length and breadth of Wales and, of course, to her own constituency of Islwyn.
I believe 14 October of this year was a historic day for rail transport in Wales, and in Islwyn, with the launch of the new Wales and borders rail franchise. Led by Transport for Wales, this will be the very first made-in-Wales rail service, one that was designed and delivered by the Welsh Government here in Wales. And as Rhianon said, £5 billion of investment will be funnelled into rail infrastructure and rail services over the next decade and a half, ensuring that our network will be transformed.
There's going to be £800 million spent on new rolling stock to ensure that, by 2023, 95 per cent of journeys will be on 148 brand new trains with half assembled here in Wales. That money will also see £738 million spent on modernising the Valleys lines, supporting the next phase of metro, and it will run many more trains per hour. In addition, £194 million will be spent on station investment—investment that will see every single station improved. There'll be an extra 285 services across Wales every weekday, and on Sundays an extra 294 services.
Six hundred new jobs and 30 apprenticeships each year willbe created, and those opportunities will be open to people in the Valleys communities. I'm keen to ensure that depots, such as that which is being created in Taff's Well, will reach out to communities beyond the immediate vicinity of Taff'sWell and offer opportunities for apprentices across the Valleys communities.There'll also be a 25 per cent reduction in carbon emissions across the network. There'll be the introduction of smart ticketing across Wales and the extension of free travel to those younger than 11, with half-price fares for 16 to 18-year-olds.
In the coming months and years, we will deliver groundbreaking transformation of transport across the country and in Islwyn. Communities on the EbbwVale line will benefit from a range of improvements and enhancements planned by TfW to the line. New rolling stock will be introduced, improving the quality and the ambience of passenger facilities compared to the tired rolling stock we have right now.In 2019,refurbished trains will be introduced to add capacity to the line, and, in 2022, brand-new trains will be introduced with level boarding, free Wi-Fi, power sockets, electronic passenger information, air-conditioning and more space for bikes.
Increases in services on the Ebbw line are a priority for the south Wales metro. The vision is for four services per hour. Infrastructure improvements on the line are currently being progressed, and we expect the doubling of services on the line from 2021, increasing tofour per hour by 2024, and I can assure Rhianon Passmore that I will be working with TfW to deliver this. By May 2021, we plan to restore the rail link between Ebbw Vale and Newport, with the introduction of a new hourly service, which will improve rail access for communities in Islwyn, and I'm really pleased that the Member is happy with this outcome.
Accompanying this, there will be a significant increase in capacity delivered by the new contract, designed to help more people get a seat during the busiest times. Indeed, the number of seats will increase by 60 per cent. The contract ensures that TfW will be penalised if passengers have to stand for longer than 20 minutes and, in addition, stations will be improved significantly. An enhanced deep cleaning programme is being put in place, followed by the installation of free Wi-Fi by December 2020. By December 2022, we will refurbish platform shelters and install new passenger information screens. By 2023, we'll install improved cycle storage facilities.
Of course, the Ebbw Vale line, which remains the responsibility of Network Rail and the UK Government, has significant engineering challenges that meant we could not add it to the central metro at this stage. However, the scheme's development now involves TfW, and their technical expertise is supplementing Network Rail's work. Our ambition continues to be to grow the services tofour trains per hour, and I have instructed Transport for Wales to present us with options for delivering this. Transport for Wales is indeed working through the options, working with partners to identify a cost-effective way to deliver our ambitions.
I think it's important, though, to understand that this is part of a major 15-year investment programme. Our bold ambitions will take time to bring to fruition and won't be achieved overnight. But I am confident that, by 2023, the people of Islwyn and Wales will be benefiting from the best passenger rail service in the UK.

Thank you very much. And that brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:02.

QNR

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education

Leanne Wood: How does the Welsh Government ensure that classrooms are equipped to ensure that pupils with additional needs can reach their full potential?

Kirsty Williams: We strive to ensure that excellent facilities are available to our learners. Our twenty-first century schools and education programme has encompassed a wide variety of schemes catering for the different needs of all learners and communities.

Llyr Gruffydd: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on changes to the GCSE examination system?

Kirsty Williams: Twenty-nine new GCSEs and 29 A-Levels have been introduced in Wales following the review of qualifications in 2012. The new qualifications have been rolled out over three years between 2015 and 2017 and over £10 million was made available to support schools with their introduction.

Vikki Howells: What action is the Welsh Government taking in relation to supply teaching?

Kirsty Williams: We are introducing a new National Procurement Service agency framework that supports fair work; piloting school-based supply cluster arrangements as an alternative direct employment model; developing plans to introduce quality assurance standards and delivering on our commitment to fund professional learning for all teachers including supply teachers.

Nick Ramsay: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on GCSE outcomes in summer 2018?

Kirsty Williams: GCSE summer outcomes remained broadly stable considering the impact of a change in early entry activity and the introduction of 15 new examinations. It was particularly pleasing to see improvement at the top grades from the previous year, which will help pupils go on to further study or training.

Bethan Sayed: Will the Cabinet Secretary outline the Welsh Government's plans for secondary school sixth forms?

Kirsty Williams: Local authorities are responsible for planning of school places. When proposing significant changes to schools they must comply with the school organisation code and take into account a range of factors, the prime consideration being the interests of learners. Proposals affecting school sixth forms require the approval of Welsh Ministers.

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services

Hefin David: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on prescription drug packaging in Wales?

Vaughan Gething: The packaging of medicines in the UK is governed by requirements set out in guidance issued by the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agencyand by regulations.

Joyce Watson: What action is the Welsh Government taking to raise awareness of the harmful effects of alcohol misuse?

Vaughan Gething: The Welsh Government is taking a range of action to raise awareness of the harmful effects of alcohol misuse. These include funding Alcohol Concern Cymru Wales to deliver ongoing campaigns, promotion of the chief medical officer alcohol guidelines, and promotion of the public health messages associated with the Public Health (Minimum Price for Alcohol) (Wales) Act 2018.

Rhianon Passmore: What measures does the Welsh Government intend to take to promote south-east Wales as an excellent place for GPs to work and live?

Vaughan Gething: We are working closely with health boards and Health Education and Improvement Wales through our successful national and international marketing campaign 'Train. Work. Live.' to recruit and retain healthcare professionals with positive results.

Caroline Jones: What steps is the Welsh Government taking to improve access to new medicines?

Vaughan Gething: Welsh Government has established the new treatment fund, backed by £16 million a year of additional funding. By the end of October, the new treatment fund had provided patients throughout Wales with faster access to 146 new medicines for a wide range of medical conditions.

Rhun ap Iorwerth: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on dental services in north Wales?

Vaughan Gething: The health board is working to improve the provision of dental services. This includes developing a strategy and the operational detail required to deliver the required improvements. I expect to see sustained action at pace to replace provision lost as a result of practice closures.

Jane Hutt: What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the NICE guideline for management of urinary incontinence and pelvic organ prolapse draft currently out for consultation?

Vaughan Gething: I welcome NICE’s consultation. The draft guideline is consistent with the recommendations made in July by the Welsh mesh and tape task and finish group in relation to the use of non-surgical options as a first resort and other key aspects of clinical practice.e.

Questions to the Minister for Children, Older People and Social Care

Bethan Sayed: How does the Welsh Government ensure standards at privately managed care homes?

Huw Irranca-Davies: All care homes in Wales are regulated by Care Inspectorate Wales, on behalf of Welsh Ministers. Regular inspections take place under the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016, and action is taken where necessary to ensure the quality and safety of services for people in Wales.